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Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
Glamour Shocks Readers By Featuring Plus-Size Model's Belly

Who Is The Liz Phair Of The New Generation?

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larana
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I'm really tired of this "real women" BS. Right. I get it! I am not a real woman. Fine. I don't care. The model is absolutely stunning and gorgeous and I am damn glad that magazines are featuring women like her. But.. I still don't look like her, with the beautiful blond hair and lovely nose and light skin. When I sit like that, cellulite pops out everywhere, and I am probably "thinner" than she is whatever that means, and I exercise and all that nonsense.

I thought the real problem was the lack of inclusion of women (humans!) of all kinds. Christ. I almost wish that I cared about clothes so I could just start my own damned magazine, and show women in awesome clothes who are normal, and abnormal, different races, mixed race, tall, short, old, young. With different shaped noses. Magazine models always have beautiful noses, graceful ears. I want to see a model with ears that stick out!

You know in the art world, that's normal. Fashion is just too retarded and when they want to start making money on their fugly clothes everything gets messed up. That image someone posted on the woman with the red wrap is a typical art model. That's a world where the size 12 woman is queen. Maybe if ya'll feel bad about your bodies look at less fashion and more art. it won't make you want to buy stuff but it might make you feel good. it works for me.

/rant over. Thanks to Jezzies for your patience.
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Jo Aage
08/24/09

@larana: I hearted you. If I could promote you, put this post up in lights, and buy you a nice big drink, I would.
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ImproperDancing
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I can't believe she's plus size....She's proportionately fit for her height. I'm a size 8 and would KILL to look like her.

But I still must stand up and applaud for the use of a real body without protruding bones. I love how natural she looks. And no airbrushing!
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jairip
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
What I find interesting about all this, is that so many women suddenly feel "validated" by this picture being used in a fashion mag.

Honestly I buy fashion mags to look at the clothes, not the models. I know my body and what looks good on it and what doesn't. How the clothes fit the model has nothing to do with how they will fit me.

And just because a model is being used that has my body type doesn't suddenly make me a better mother, wife, daughter-in-law, sister, or bookkeeper.

Why should this picture make me (or anybody else) feel better about myself?

I haven't picked up a Glamour in years. Do they still print articles about being An Independent Woman right next to articles about how to "catch" a man?

Re-reading my comments, it occurs to me that this woman has no clothes on, making my point a bit moot. sigh...
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remedios
08/24/09

@jairip: That's great that the traditional fashion magazine works for you, but for a lot of others, it doesn't. Lots of people, myself included, do not have the confidence that you apparently have, and when we're bombarded with images of people that look nothing like us, that are celebrating ultra-thinness and making it painful obvious that anything outside of that is unacceptable in fashion, with comments when a celebrity goes from a size 2 to a size 4 that she is somehow fat, disgusting, etc, our self-esteem is shaken. I don't obviously know you nor your body type (nor do I need to, of course) but very few people, even some of the strongest otherwise, can simply ignore all of it. Knowing logically that it shouldn't matter doesn't make it so. I don't know about this picture in particular, but in general, seeing pictures of models that are not just a celebration of thinness help those of us that are not thin to not feel like many are looking at us and saying, you are a vile, ugly person that makes me want to vomit.

Also, I have no idea what does look good on me. And fashion magazines are not helping with that. So it's great that you do and can easily translate what you see to something you might wear, but not everyone has that. And your point about her being naked--a comment below even mentions that it would be nice to see women of her size wearing clothes. This is all about saying to the world--look, we have real women too! It's not about incorporating women of her size into the regular modeling rotation.

All this being said, a single picture (or a couple) is hardly a revolution, and I was shocked to hear she's a size 12-14. I know what size I am, and a part of me thinks, well if she's a size 12-14, I should look better than I actually do,m given my size. But whatever... baby steps, baby steps.
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graceful_gamine
08/24/09

@jairip: I think that for me, I'm so used to seeing photo-shopped pictures or plastic surguried actresses and such that I forget that woman look really different and pretty in their different shapes. The only other place I see a variety of shapes with very little clothing is at the beach.

I mean, yeah, magazines are fun to look at for the clothes, but I think the broader issue is media in general and how women with little or no clothes have to be one size.
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tiredfairy
08/24/09

@jairip: Well, this type of imagery is everywhere, is the thing. It's not just mags. It's TV and movies and all the things that involve our pop culture. And it's become a judgment on the individual, both internal and external.

We're all effected to some degree or other. And there's a difference between knowing something on intellectual level, and how it effects you emotionally. For a lot of women, not meeting our beauty ideal has led them to face a lot of ridicule and judgment. And for many of them, it's difficult not to internalize the judgments of others. So when you see images of that ideal, it just reconfirms all the ways you don't meet it.

A lot of our culture as it relates to women is built around finding ways of promoting ideals, especially of beauty, that are narrow and limited. Just like it's not surprising that many woman feel alienated and "ugly" in comparison to the thin ideal, many black women feel the same way due to the white, blonde ideal.

So an image that deviates even a little is surprising and, for many women, encouraging.
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jairip
08/24/09

@tiredfairy:

"So an image that deviates even a little is surprising and, for many women, encouraging"

I hear what you're saying. I do. I'm glad some women find this encouraging.

But, being that we are all internet savvy here, I would think that we would be confronted with differing "images" of beauty every day.
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remedios
08/24/09

@jairip: Sure, we get some differing images of beauty every day, but we are bombarded with images of thinness as part of the definition of beauty. As I mentioned above, most of the time when there are images of someone outside this false image (false because it is treated as if it is the norm), we are treated as if we are disgusting creatures. A lot of that is from gossip magazines that find it to be their job to point out cellulite, and worse, commenters. Even if fashion magazines don't always add to that to the same degree, they're the ones that are setting the standard of beauty that others follow. They say--look at this, this is beauty--and the followers find images that don't fit that and say--look at this, this is disgusting. It's hard to just ignore that, even if logically we know that shouldn't define us, and even if it is not the sole voice.
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tiredfairy
08/24/09

@jairip: Sure, you and I do. But most people? They really don't. I know it seems like they would, but they don't.

And beyond that, our overall culture encourages a huge level of body commentary. The internet especially. It's rampant. From stars to just someone on the street, their are sites dedicated to tearing women down. It's become ingrained.

So, sure, sites like Jez are great because they actively seek to point out the flaws in this, and regularly showcase beauty diversity. But not everyone is viewing Jez, nor do most people have any idea why it's a problem to begin with. That's why this is encouraging, even if it's not really a drastic leap.
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Bunsy
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
Isn't Matt's wife a former model?
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Tara Incognita
08/24/09

@Bunsy: I know she modeled for J Crew.
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ihateyourescalade
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
This model is 20. I applaud the use of a "real" woman, for sure. But wake me up when Glamour dares to photograph a woman in her 30s or, gasp, 40s.
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RedLantern
08/24/09

@ihateyourescalade: Yes...and I can't help but notice that, while a magazine condescending to use a plus sized model is celebrated, even temporarily sainted, plus sized models are required to be excessively conventional looking in every other way. "Normal" models will often have strange features, but the plus sized variety always look beautiful, but very unremarkable.
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applejuice
08/24/09

@ihateyourescalade: Yes! Slap a couple of pregnancies on that "pooch" and look back at that picture as the good old days.

I do also applaud the use of a real woman. But most people in their twenties don't know how good they've got it! I look back at pictures of myself when I was younger and now laugh at things I used to think were "imperfections". Things only go downhill as you age I am afraid!

But I am also much more happy in my skin now. Maybe as I have aged I hve been able to put things in perspective? Maybe I just don't have time to worry? I don't know, but my body is probably the least like the perceived "ideal" it has ever been, yet I am more content with it than I was when I was young and more in line with the "ideal"!
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alwaysapropos
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I really enjoy looking at Lizzi Miller, especially now that I've heard her speak and can confirm that she is intelligent, friendly, and poised in addition to being beautiful. I want her to sell me things on commercials, and I want to see her in supporting roles in romcoms. Can we stretch out her fifteen minutes and make that happen, Hollywood?
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Notes from the underwhelmed
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
Ok, there's no such thing as a "size 12" just as there is no such thing as a size 2,4,6,8, whatever. Sizing in prêt-à-porter is dramatically different and varies from designer to designer and piece to piece- there is absolutely no standard other than the fit model they use (couture sizing, however, has never changed with vanity sizing). If you wear an eight in Trina Turk, you probably wear a 10 or 12 in Nanette Lepore. A 28 in Hudsons is probably a 32 in Cheap Mondays. Also, a person who wears a dress size of 12 and is 5'10" is goiing to carry it differently than a person who is a size 12 and 5'2". A person who carries more of their weight in their midsection is going to have a higher pant size than someone who carries more weight in their limbs, but could very possibly weigh less.

Just thought I would clarify.
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BetteD
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
This is great, but really, the biggest stride we need to make lies in not waiting for the Beauty Police to tell us we are good enough AT ALL.

It isn't about waiting for someone's permission to accept ourselves. It isn't even about being recognized as beautiful. It's realizing that our worth is no more tied to being accepted as beautiful than it is to being of a certain caste or creed.

Yes, it's fantastic that the hierarchy of beauty is being widened just a bit to accept different colors, shapes, and sizes. And no, I'm not sitting around waiting for these distinctions and classifications to become less significant culturally. What I am doing is realizing that my worth lies elsewhere; that what is lovable and important and REAL about me lies outside the physical realm entirely.

Learning to forge an identity outside of my body was the biggest and most healing component of recovering from ED. So while it's rad that fuller, healthy bodies are a little more "in" right now, I don't really need them to be to accept myself. Nor should any of you amazing, intelligent, BEAUTIFUL women.
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LaComtesse
08/24/09

@BetteD: "So while it's rad that fuller, healthy bodies are a little more "in" right now, I don't really need them to be to accept myself."

This is genuinely inspiration. Thank you so much for this.
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BetteD
08/24/09

@LaComtesse: You're so welcome, dude. I just wish it didn't take five years of almost killing myself over my body shape to get to this. My only wish is that women can look at these images and say, "Eh, take it or leave it." As in, the total abdication of power we often feel when we let fashion or the media dictate how we live our lives or feel about ourselves.

The real world is out THERE and in your heart and mind, not in those pages or even in your own mirror.
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LaComtesse
08/24/09

@BetteD: You are SO hearted.
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Bollywhaaa
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"

I just learned the model in this picture is Crystal Renn, the woman who at the ripe age of 23 has already dealt with anorexia and is now (yep) a size 12 plus-size model. I've run across this picture in the last few months, and always always find myself transfixed for several seconds. Gorgeous.
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SarahMC
08/24/09

@Bollywhaaa: I get transfixed too! Every time I just stare in amazement that the model has folds on her sides and it's presented as unremarkable.
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howdybeep (runs with monkey wrenches)
08/24/09

@SarahMC: And for me, it was the airbrushing of her ass crack. But it's still a mesmerizing image.
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Bollywhaaa
08/24/09

@howdybeep (runs with monkey wrenches): See, I *identify* with that, as I too am one of society's crack-less. We may be small in number, but we deserve positive representations, damnit. Think of the crack-less children . . .
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emfish55
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I had an argument with a guy friend recently about women and weight. I'm between a size 0 and a size 2, and I always have been, regardless of my fitness level. My point was simply that there are plenty of healthy women who eat right and get lots of exercise, but are naturally a size 8 or a size 14 or whatever, and since that's their natural, non-starved size, we as a society need to stop thinking that bigger means unhealthy or ugly, because it's just unrealistic to expect every woman to "discipline" herself down to my size, when I certainly didn't discipline myself into it. It does not work that way.

But he just didn't believe it. He has completely bought into the myth that all people, especially women, can be tiny if they just "work at it" and that bigger women are that way because they are lazy and have "let themselves go".

That's why we need to change our perceptions. It's bad enough that women feel bad about themselves. What's worse it that our entire society has come to believe it's all just a question of discipline and will power, and see nothing wrong with perpetuating ridiculous and unrealistic standards for us.
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samarkand
08/24/09

@emfish55: I'm a size 12 or 14 (depending) and can run 3-5 miles no problem. Since I began running, people have sort of assumed that I'm doing it to lose weight. I haven't really lost any weight, and I'm not holding my breath for that either. I started running because, while I'm a health-conscious vegetarian and eat a whole-foods diet, I was out of shape. I'm in shape now. And I'm still fat. *shrug* I'm old enough now, and married to a man who still finds me sexy, that I am not really bothered by that fact.
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Edited by samarkand at 08/24/09 11:43 AM samarkand was starred samarkand was unstarred

delirium.megans
08/24/09

@emfish55: that is just one guy though. i know plenty of men who understand that women come in all shapes and sizes and are ok with that.
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rixatrix
08/24/09

@emfish55: Absolutely. As a woman who's a size 12 and works out and eats well (sometimes stringently healthy, other times healthy but more relaxed), it's taken me a while to be comfortable with my level of fitness in relation to my size. Getting a trainer helped - she measured my body fat and we found I have an above-average amount of muscle, which contributes to that pesky number on the scale. I could never be a size 2, because physiologically, my body is inclined to carry both more muscle and more padding than a naturally size 2 person, and because I would never give up the joy of eating and living and enjoying long enough to starve myself down.

What's so fucking FUNNY about my own self-consciousness is that I can look at a woman who is my same size or larger and admire her beauty and poise and fashion sense. And then when I look in the mirror sometimes, I wish my limbs were put together differently. What is that?

Also, maybe your man friend would get the message if you told him you thought any guy could look like Mr. Universe or Ah-nold back in the day. Because just like women, men have different body types - some are prone to be skinny, some naturally built, some thick and strong. Surely he must see that in his own friends.
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KatsMeow
08/24/09

@samarkand: I'm a 'chubby' runner as well! I run anywhere from 12-20 miles a week. When the people at work heard I was running everyone assumed I was trying to lose weight.

As a size 14, I was disgusted when the receptionist overheard me discussing an upcoming 5k and said, "YOU run?" The implication being that someone my size couldn't possibly run.

Not only did I run...I came in fourth for my age group.
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SarahMC
08/24/09

@delirium.megans: Lizzi's picture was posted on Sociological Images along with a little write-up, and sadly the story got a lot of "ew fatty" comments from guys. Lot of "fat is objectively ugly!" rationalizations too.
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RedLantern
08/24/09

@emfish55: Is there any woman, of any size, who wants or appreciates the fact that men like your friend (not all men) feel they have the right or even the responsibility to monitor the female body? From what you describe, it seems like this is a man--and he's not alone--feels sincerely entitled to have any woman he has to look at make allowances to fit his viewing preferences. Honestly, it enrages me that people like him exist. He can prefer whatever he prefers, but to think his point of view should be considered relevant by anyone else is the height of arrogance and narcissism.
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emfish55
08/24/09

@delirium.megans: I agree, there are definitely men who understand this. But there are also a lot of men and women who don't seem to grasp this fundamental fact, which is one reason why "fat" is a word that has come to be applied to anyone bigger than a size 6, and also why being heavier is so often conflated with being lazy or undisciplined. I just hope Glamour actually does get the message and starts working to genuinely expand the definition of beautiful in the ladymag world.
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emfish55
08/24/09

@RedLantern: You said it better than I could. Trust me, the whole conversation just enraged me. And this particular guy friend is going to be sorely disappointed when he finally realizes that women actually don't exist for the express purpose of being pleasing to his eye. The sad thing for me is that this is actually a good guy. He's a kind and loyal friend, he's incredibly smart, and he actually has a diverse and interesting group of friends and family that he truly accepts. Which is why it's all the more frustrating to see him espousing such a false, ridiculous, and misogynistic view. And he's not alone.
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egg cream
08/24/09

@rixatrix: What's so fucking FUNNY about my own self-consciousness is that I can look at a woman who is my same size or larger and admire her beauty and poise and fashion sense. And then when I look in the mirror sometimes, I wish my limbs were put together differently. What is that?

Yes! I have been noticing this SO MUCH lately! I'll find myself checking out a cute woman at the beach, or I'll get angry when a gossip blogger insults a celebrity I think is really gorgeous, and about a minute later I'm like, "Wait a minute -- but you don't find that body attractive when you're looking a it in the mirror, and you say that sort of shit about yourself all the time. What is wrong with you?"
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delirium.megans
08/24/09

@emfish55: i gotcha and i do agree that this is a big problem. i just want to give the men out there who do get it a little bit of credit.
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cocobanal
08/24/09

@KatsMeow: I run only in the winter months (I live in FL and can't take the summer heat/humidity), but I ride my bike 15 miles at a pop several times a week, go to a 50-minute spin class at least once a week, walk on the treadmill 2.5 miles once a week, and work out with weights several times a week, too. In the winter, I run two miles most days, or if I don't feel like running, I speed walk at least 3 miles at a time.

And still--STILL--people drop hints about my not exercising, because I'm a size 14 and carry extra weight, so of course that means I don't work out, right? Just yesterday I met a friend of my sister's who made such a comment. My sister is small (size 2) and is a runner, and her friend said to me after meeting me, "You're more like me than you are your sister. I never exercise, either." I had to tell her politely that yeah, I work out almost every day. She seemed shocked, as most people do when I tell them that. The thing is--and I know I'm preaching to the choir here--my sister is naturally small, and I am naturally big. I am a size 14 person, maybe a 12 if I really, really work at it obsessively. That's just who I am. If I work out as much as I do and am still a 14, then that's what I am.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
08/24/09

@egg cream is here, is second tier, get used to it: Do you take the time to answer the question? Exploring that might be where some power lies, I think. (jmho.)
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Elizabth_Bennet
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
The editor still makes me want to shake my head in dismay. No this is NOT just sign of the times, women do not just want this NOW we have always wanted this and you're just now starting to pay attention cause your profits are dropping.
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lola_in_the_dark
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I really wish someone like this had been around when I was 13 and being made fun of by the super skinny girls for not being a size 2.
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FashionShowAtLunch
08/24/09

@lola_in_the_dark: I really wish someone like this had been around when I was 13 and everyone made fun of me because I was super-skinny. Bitches in seventh grade will make fun of you for any goddam reason.

Really, what's important here is not her size, but her very reasonable comment not that her size is normal, but that it's normal for her.
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lola_in_the_dark
08/24/09

@FashionShowAtLunch: I know but despite being a normal size I was made to feel like I was a whale because I wasn't super skinny. I see pictures of how I used to look and wish I could go back in time, smack myself in the face and scream, "Look at yourself! Your body is fine!"
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Sputnik_Sweetheart
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I have a really hard time wrapping my head around the fact that a size 12 is "plus-sized" considering that the average American woman is a size 12-14.
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NefariousNewt
08/24/09

@Sputnik_Sweetheart: It's plus-sized in Model Land; they use a different system of measurements there, kind of like an anorexic version of the metric system.
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Rooo sez BISH PLZ
08/24/09

@NefariousNewt: Best description ever.
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o-line
08/24/09

@Sputnik_Sweetheart: I thought that size 8 was the "plus-size" boundary?
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slowpoke.r
08/24/09

@o-line: Is it really? That's crazy. Literally insane.

Which is the point. If the average size in this country is 12 or 14, why are we still calling that plus size? Why isn't that "regular" and anything below it "minus size" or some other other-izing term? I think Sputnik was reflecting on the fact that the standards- and the language we use to talk about those standards- are not reflective of reality.
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Edited by slowpoke.r at 08/24/09 12:49 PM slowpoke.r was starred slowpoke.r was unstarred

ReanimatedHorse
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
There now Glamour. After decades of resisting... that wasn't so bad was it?
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CherriSpryte
08/24/09

In reply to Glamour's Plus-Size Model: "I'm Not Saying Size 2 Isn't Normal, But My Normal Is This"
I would be really really happy if we could remove "normal" from the coversation, you know? There IS no normal.
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NefariousNewt
08/24/09

@CherriSpryte: Agreed. Normal is what you are, not what everyone else thinks you should be.
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InCahoots
08/24/09

@NefariousNewt: Right, which is what she said, no? I think she kind of WAS taking normal out of the conversation.
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