YES! Nothing says "acceptance" and "respect" to a marginalized group like offering it its very own beauty contest! Judgment for all!
I am not trans and can't pretend to know what that experience might be like. No amount of Logo docs will put me in that place. But at a certain point, I feel like I'd want to be the gender I had transitioned to, and not remain forever in a purgatory of "trans"-[gender]. To me, these women are WOMEN. Any thoughts?
@JerseyGrrrl: If this contest was in America or the UK you'd be right on. But as I said below, the original post doesn't address the cultural differences. The group of male-to-female transsexuals in India is incredibly large, and most don't consider themselves female once "transitioned". I think even calling them transsexuals is inaccurate, as we automatically think of the transitioning process in Western cultures. They consider themselves a third sex and want others to recognize them as such. You can read about it on Wikipedia's third sex page. The HBO documentary "Middle Sexes" is an even more compelling resource on this and other gender anomalies.
@Eriu: Thanks! It's true that my snap judgment on this is showing my American-ness. I shouldn't have assumed the situation is similar in India, and since you mentioned it, I remember reading (even here, maybe) about the movement for additional genders in other places.
@JerseyGrrrl: Had I not seen the documentary, my initial reaction would've been the same as yours. It's so crazy to think about how much we pressure people to fit into the categories of male or female, especially in the Western world. Our society's version of progress is like, "Fine, be transgendered, but you still have to pick one!" I love learning about places that aren't like that (as much).
I've always felt its important to make EVERY woman feel that her most important and womanly aspects revolve around how others rate her physical beauty.
@femaledwightschrute: Baton twirling is an important skill for every woman to have: it indicates that you a) know your way around a phallus and b) are good at juggling things—like babies and making dinner. These two things complete the whore/Madonna duality I expect in all women.
@LaComtesse: There are plenty of things to object to in beauty contests (and I shudder to think about how the "beautiful skin" competition will play out... I have a guess) but I also think that anything that helps people (who I'm assuming are members of the Hirja community) to participate more visibly in mainstream society is a plus. Yup, it's still a segregated contest, yup, they're probably being judged on some pretty icky beauty standards, but on the plus side, SOMEONE is (hopefully) celebrating members of a group that has long been forced to live pretty marginal lives. I lived for a while iin an area where caste restrictions were alive and well and dictated the kinds of jobs people could have, the people to whom they could speak, the languages they were allowed to learn, etc. It's not nothing.
I think this one can (optimistically) be seen more as an advance in terms of social boundaries without necessarily being an advance for women in general. India,(like everywhere) has a whole, diverse set of social issues to work on, and I'd hate to see whatever gains there might be here disregarded just because everything else hasn't been solved yet.
@Miss. Money-Sterling: Based on what I know about the group (which is limited), the one place Hirja DO have a legitimate place is in the sphere of entertainment by enacting/pantomiming ultra-femininity and gender stereotypes (entertainment for the bride and groom before a wedding comes to mind).
If pervasive acceptance is the aim, take the Hirja out of where we are USED to seeing them and give them recognition for something other than that.
That said, I have no doubt this is coming from a good place, I just think it's the wrong way to go about things.
while i think this is great... what about a MR. section too? transgender goes both ways, and i think it would be awesome to see how GQ some of these misters are too.
@hippichx sez PEACE PLEASE: I don't think female-male transgender is as visible as the Hijra community is in India.
My guess is because the Hijras, as they are called, are a very visible and important part of Indian culture particularly when it comes to rituals like marriage, but are still degraded and treated horribly in most communities. As I recall from some courses, the Hijras are often paid to come to certain celebrations to bestow a "blessing," but are so marginalized and discriminated against (even beaten) and that many of them have to resort to prostitution and sex work to get by. I am guessing that this pageant is supposed to make people see that they can fit in more places in society than where they are traditionally forced into.
Oh, and not everything is us vs. them. Some people are just shitty people. They say shitty things. Just because someone says something stupid about big boobs doesn't mean that its small boobs vs. big boobs. I used to know someone who used to comment on my flatter chest all the fucking time. It was annoying, and I am not longer friends with her. But it wasn't a boob thing, it was an asshole thing.
There are a lot of Jezzies posting how they or their best friend/sister/whoever is naturally super thin and I have a serious question.
Does anyone know an adult (21+) woman with no health problems (illness, eating disorder) with a BMI below 17? [www.nhlbisupport.com]
Yes, BMI is not a perfect measure, but it is pretty dependable on the low end of the spectrum. Miss Australia has a BMI of 16.3 and that is way lower than any of the numbers I've seen posted on here. And I think that is a number that would cause any doctor to worry.
@clevernamehere: I'm not below 17 but I am below what they (doctors and that site) consider "normal weight." I'm the same height as Miss Australia and an "expert" on television the other day said that the lowest anyone that height should be is 155, 25 pounds heavier than me. I agree that unhealthy weight should be addressed, and I agree that Miss America is unhealthy, but I think we need a better way of determining what a healthy weight is. I look nothing like her, don't feel at all unhealthy weight-wise, and don't do anything (save being vegetarian, if you want to count that even though my weight is not a factor in why I'm veggie) to lose or maintain my weight.
@Eriu: I know BMI gets a lot of criticism here, but it is the best of the quick measures and it is infrequently grossly inaccurate.
Being mildly underweight according to BMI is not a big deal just like being mildly overweight according to BMI isn't a big deal. Often that's just a few pounds.
But to group together Miss Australia's BMI of 16.3 and your BMI of (I'd guess) 18.1 is crazy. I'm sure there are days when you hit 18.5 (133 at 5'11").
@Eriu: Oh and FYI 155 is the exact midpoint of the healhy BMI range for 5'11". The midpoint is often thrown out as the ideal number. I have a feeling the doctor meant toss that out as a good example of a healthy weight, not the end all be all.
i was 80-85 pounds all through high school, and i ALWAYS got comments from people all through my adolescence. i HATED that people felt comfortable commenting on my weight, and it is a double standard. i remember eating a sandwich at my job (retail) when i was 15, and a shopper stopped what she was doing, looked me in the eye and said "wow, you actually eat?' it made me feel like shit.
i dont know why its ok to comment on someones weight when they are perceived underweight, but not when they are perceived overweight. if she has an eating disorder, get her help. but some people are naturally just skinny and other people need to lay off.
@NeomaOrestes: It isn't okay to comment on anyone's weight unless you are 1) a medical professional or 2) a truly concerned friend/family member who knows you habits and health.
I have to say, she really does not look emaciated or too thin. I think she just has a really high metabolism and a slight frame. I confess, i used to judge people who looked like her and assume that they had an eating disorder. Then, I met my husband. He is 6'0 and weights 135lb. Most people tell him he is too skinny and he needs to gain wait. i have even had people suggest that he has an eating disorder. I can tell you first hand that he eats well and eats a lot. He just has a super speedy metabolism. It's sad that we live in a society where no matter what you look like, you are always too ...something.
@cosmicdenmother: To be fair though, your husband has a BMI of 18.3, which is just barely underweight (137+ would be considered normal).
Her BMI is 16.3, which is 16 pounds below what is considered healthy. And she is obviously heavier in photos from last year.
Some people are naturally slightly underweight and some teenagers are underweight before they fill out, but very, very few people are really underweight without there being a health problem or an eating issue.
so, I'm going to go ahead and believe that she eats 6-8 of those small meals a day.
But what I don't understand, is if she's really naturally skinny why isn't she just sitting around eating chocolate cake. I mean, that's what I'd be doing...but then again I am not so good with "the diets"
@norizzle: Personally, I got overwhelmed with food and started to resent having to stuff my face with it all the freaking time. It was a burden and a pain to the point I got no joy or pleasure out of eating. I also got sick of having to find new things to eat or eating the same things over and over again. Actually, worse, stress made me lose my appetite entirely, so I'd have to remember to eat and then force myself to do it or else I'd lose any healthy weight I'd managed to accumulate. Eventually I realized that it wasn't healthy to blame food for my whacked-out metabolism, so I tried to just take a deep breath and eat what I felt like eating without stressing over it.
Never really liked chocolate cake. Pure dark chocolate or baklava are my "death by" deserts of choice.
Why don't these shows just come out and say what they really mean to say with these asinine segments:
"You. Yeah, you. Look in the mirror much? Well you should, because you are a woman. This is why you're here; you are supposed to look good. And by "good" we mean "everything that you don't already have", so if you are larger, you should really lose that spare tire and buy a gym membership. Or buy some lipo. Remember that cream that is "Better Than Botox?" Buy that, too. If you are thin, you should really go out and buy yourself a set of jugs, or maybe some ass implants. And why you're at it, buy a freaking cheeseburger and hire a nutritionist. Everyone else? Yeah, no one really cares about you, so you should remedy that by indulging yourself in some chocolate, then working it off with these cool pilates videos you can buy for $9.99 (plus shipping and handling). While you're at it, buy your way into a cool club and kiss some other girls, so someone will notice you. Here's a magazine you can buy to tell you how to do it. Why? Because as we said, you are a woman, and if we don't keep you feeling horrible about yourself for every day of your life, if we don't turn you against each other for the purposes of competing for a male, if we value you for the content of your character instead of the sum of your parts, then we can't subjugate you."
@pandorasmittens: Thank you. You've summed up everything that bothers me about every side of this weird debate. This whole thing is just making me so worked-up and it's hard to articulate why.
If you're carrying more weight around than you'd like, most of the prominent pop culture/sociological messages about your weight are made to make you feel horrible, because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get on the damn elliptical, because you must be eating 100 cheeseburgers a minute!
If you're naturally very slender, you're made to feel horrible in different ways, because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get on the damn elliptical and eat 100 cheeseburgers a minute!
If you're recovering or struggling with an ED, well, you're just a broken ol' weirdo who gave in to all those beauty ideals because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get off the damn elliptical and eat cheeseburgers or something!
This whole thing is just making me so upset and I can't even adequately articulate it. It's triggering and ragey at the same time. I think there could be a good debate here: should Ms. Naumoska try to stridently portray herself as a "good" "healthy" "role model" when there are lots of people out there who could, and have, harmed themselves in an effort to attain her body type? Is it her fault to begin with? Should she never have tried to become famous just because of her body type, just so she'd never hurt anyone's feelings? There aren't any easy answers to this, and Diane Sawyer is not helping with her mushmouthed twee cringeworthy "interview" and furrowed little brow.
@HeatherNumber1: There was a plus-size Miss England contender last year. I don't think she actually won, but she got a lot of attention. Unfortunately, a lot of that attention was negative, though. (Of course.)
@JessaFields: She's still getting crap for her weight, if I'm not mistaken. I think I read an article abut her just today, and the! horror! of her UK Size 16 figure up there in a bikini amongst the other contenders.
It was in the Daily Fail, though, so I could just have been hallucinating.
She says that there's no way she would have the energy to model or do pageants if she was malnourished, ana... etc. That her hair and skin wouldn't be so nice. I know one way: adderal. Not saying she's on it, but boy does it kill your appetite and give you energy, but your teeth don't fall out.
@devilchyld22: I'm sticking my fingers in my ears and singing loudly. I have never tried Adderall, but I fear that if I did I would never be able to stop. It sounds too wonderful.
@saintbernadette: It has its ups and downs. I was on it for about a year, and definitely lost a shit ton of weight. No one knew it was because of the adderall. I had just stopped drinking and everyone assumed I was just losing Captain Morgan weight. (I was, but not to that extent). But I never ate, and talked everyone's ears off. I was annoying, looked unhealthy (because I was) and had major ups and downs mentally. I'd be super high and happy and crash an hour later.
I'm lucky that I have the ability to know when shit gets too far for me to handle and I'm able to just shut it off and stop taking it. I got to that point with Adderall. Although there are a lot of times when I would love to go back on it because it definitely helped me out with my ADHD but I don't want to get back to that place where I was with it before, so I just don't.
09/02/09
09/02/09
I am not trans and can't pretend to know what that experience might be like. No amount of Logo docs will put me in that place. But at a certain point, I feel like I'd want to be the gender I had transitioned to, and not remain forever in a purgatory of "trans"-[gender]. To me, these women are WOMEN. Any thoughts?
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
I think this one can (optimistically) be seen more as an advance in terms of social boundaries without necessarily being an advance for women in general. India,(like everywhere) has a whole, diverse set of social issues to work on, and I'd hate to see whatever gains there might be here disregarded just because everything else hasn't been solved yet.
09/02/09
If pervasive acceptance is the aim, take the Hirja out of where we are USED to seeing them and give them recognition for something other than that.
That said, I have no doubt this is coming from a good place, I just think it's the wrong way to go about things.
09/02/09
09/02/09
09/02/09
My guess is because the Hijras, as they are called, are a very visible and important part of Indian culture particularly when it comes to rituals like marriage, but are still degraded and treated horribly in most communities. As I recall from some courses, the Hijras are often paid to come to certain celebrations to bestow a "blessing," but are so marginalized and discriminated against (even beaten) and that many of them have to resort to prostitution and sex work to get by. I am guessing that this pageant is supposed to make people see that they can fit in more places in society than where they are traditionally forced into.
09/02/09
04/28/09
04/28/09
04/28/09
Does anyone know an adult (21+) woman with no health problems (illness, eating disorder) with a BMI below 17? [www.nhlbisupport.com]
Yes, BMI is not a perfect measure, but it is pretty dependable on the low end of the spectrum. Miss Australia has a BMI of 16.3 and that is way lower than any of the numbers I've seen posted on here. And I think that is a number that would cause any doctor to worry.
04/28/09
04/28/09
Being mildly underweight according to BMI is not a big deal just like being mildly overweight according to BMI isn't a big deal. Often that's just a few pounds.
But to group together Miss Australia's BMI of 16.3 and your BMI of (I'd guess) 18.1 is crazy. I'm sure there are days when you hit 18.5 (133 at 5'11").
04/28/09
04/28/09
i dont know why its ok to comment on someones weight when they are perceived underweight, but not when they are perceived overweight. if she has an eating disorder, get her help. but some people are naturally just skinny and other people need to lay off.
04/28/09
04/28/09
04/28/09
Her BMI is 16.3, which is 16 pounds below what is considered healthy. And she is obviously heavier in photos from last year.
Some people are naturally slightly underweight and some teenagers are underweight before they fill out, but very, very few people are really underweight without there being a health problem or an eating issue.
04/28/09
04/28/09
04/28/09
@afiunderground: And methinks Nick knows and it is no accident. But I am cynical, argumentative, and also confrontational, so the rumors go.
04/28/09
It's kind of like a wire calling the pipe cleaner skinny.
Diane, you are no fatty yourself.
04/28/09
04/28/09
But what I don't understand, is if she's really naturally skinny why isn't she just sitting around eating chocolate cake. I mean, that's what I'd be doing...but then again I am not so good with "the diets"
04/28/09
Never really liked chocolate cake. Pure dark chocolate or baklava are my "death by" deserts of choice.
04/28/09
"You. Yeah, you. Look in the mirror much? Well you should, because you are a woman. This is why you're here; you are supposed to look good. And by "good" we mean "everything that you don't already have", so if you are larger, you should really lose that spare tire and buy a gym membership. Or buy some lipo. Remember that cream that is "Better Than Botox?" Buy that, too. If you are thin, you should really go out and buy yourself a set of jugs, or maybe some ass implants. And why you're at it, buy a freaking cheeseburger and hire a nutritionist. Everyone else? Yeah, no one really cares about you, so you should remedy that by indulging yourself in some chocolate, then working it off with these cool pilates videos you can buy for $9.99 (plus shipping and handling). While you're at it, buy your way into a cool club and kiss some other girls, so someone will notice you. Here's a magazine you can buy to tell you how to do it. Why? Because as we said, you are a woman, and if we don't keep you feeling horrible about yourself for every day of your life, if we don't turn you against each other for the purposes of competing for a male, if we value you for the content of your character instead of the sum of your parts, then we can't subjugate you."
04/28/09
If you're carrying more weight around than you'd like, most of the prominent pop culture/sociological messages about your weight are made to make you feel horrible, because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get on the damn elliptical, because you must be eating 100 cheeseburgers a minute!
If you're naturally very slender, you're made to feel horrible in different ways, because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get on the damn elliptical and eat 100 cheeseburgers a minute!
If you're recovering or struggling with an ED, well, you're just a broken ol' weirdo who gave in to all those beauty ideals because you're a weakling and you suck forever. Get off the damn elliptical and eat cheeseburgers or something!
This whole thing is just making me so upset and I can't even adequately articulate it. It's triggering and ragey at the same time. I think there could be a good debate here: should Ms. Naumoska try to stridently portray herself as a "good" "healthy" "role model" when there are lots of people out there who could, and have, harmed themselves in an effort to attain her body type? Is it her fault to begin with? Should she never have tried to become famous just because of her body type, just so she'd never hurt anyone's feelings? There aren't any easy answers to this, and Diane Sawyer is not helping with her mushmouthed twee cringeworthy "interview" and furrowed little brow.
04/28/09
Oh wait, that never happened?
04/28/09
[abcnews.go.com]
04/28/09
It was in the Daily Fail, though, so I could just have been hallucinating.
04/28/09
04/28/09
I day dream often of how skinny you made me, and how much work I got done.
If only I didn't grind my teeth and bite my tongue as a result, I still would have enjoyed you.
04/28/09
04/28/09
I'm lucky that I have the ability to know when shit gets too far for me to handle and I'm able to just shut it off and stop taking it. I got to that point with Adderall. Although there are a lot of times when I would love to go back on it because it definitely helped me out with my ADHD but I don't want to get back to that place where I was with it before, so I just don't.