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The Ring, Part II
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Asmo
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
I'm not a woman, and I've never understood what a vaginal ring is supposed to be. It sounds uncomfortable.
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milominderbinder
05/20/09

@Asmo: its a flexible ring thing that you put ermmm "up there" ever seen the nuvaring (type of birth control) commercials? the girl squishes one at the end. its not like a solid ring (which might be what you're thinking) its squishy. but yeah still sounds uncomfortable. maybe someone with experience could explain better than i can, ha!
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the dodo, the cuckoo, and the nene
05/20/09

@milominderbinder: I have used nuvaring for 5 years, and it's not uncomfortable at all. I don't even notice it. I don't think it's any less comfortable/awkward than a tampon.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
FYI to anyone seeking basic statistics on the HIV/AIDS epidemic in the U.S.:

[www.cdc.gov]
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milominderbinder
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
QUESTION for all the smart science ladies here okay HIV is a virus so it can't duplicate on its own right? it needs to hijack other cells and insert its hmm DNA? (not sure if its something else) and then uses that cells system to replicate itself. but to connect to other cells doesn't it connect to them via their cell receptors so is there some way to make the cell receptors block the virus so that it can't connect to them and then the virus wouldn't infect you it would just die? is this a completely stupid question?
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@milominderbinder: Not a stupid question. Receptor-blocking drugs are in development, but they are showing mixed results, not to mention that the practice is much more complicated than the theory (which sounds easy -- just block the virus).

[www.medpagetoday.com]
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sciencerules
05/20/09

@milominderbinder: Not a stupid question at all. Granted, I don't work with HIV, but it's my understanding that blocking the receptors is a) difficult with any degree of reliability, and b) may have many unintended side effects.

However, HIV is a really delicate flower OUTSIDE your cells, so this looks to me like a well-conceived line of defense--kill it before it can get in you and start mutating and evading all those other defenses.
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Scout
05/20/09

@milominderbinder: HIV doesn't have DNA, only RNA. When it enters T-cells it uses that T-cells own DNA and mfr process to replicate itself.

For this reason of HIV's reliance on T-cells, the scientific research has recently turned more in finding a vaccine versus attempting to cure an HIV patient.

So yes, preventing the virus from entering one's is a smart move for many reasons.

That said, gah! what a fucking cocktail of drugs for the va-jay jay!
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Grim Reaper of the Forest
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
It is great to have that option, but I'm with others in that I would be concerned about inserting something every time I have sex that releases massive amounts of drugs. If you were having sex with someone who was infected, or paranoid in general like me, this plus a condom might be good.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@Grim Reaper of the Forest: It doesn't release massive amounts of drugs -- only a prophylactic dose. Not that it can't cause side effects, but it's nowhere near the dosage taken by people who have already contracted the disease.
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colormeroutine
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
I am in a monogamous relationship and I would STILL wear this like, every single day. Because I am neurotic
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gumbytime
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
anything out there for men?
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PreposterousHypothesis
05/20/09

@gumbytime: Condoms.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@gumbytime: There is ongoing research/development of microbicidal gels that can be applied rectally.

[www.hivandhepatitis.com]
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brinkswomanship
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
Wow, that would be amazing if it worked. Now, let's distribute a few million of them to women in Africa so they can try to get a handle on the whole rape/war crime/insanely terrifyingly high AIDS rates there.
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
OK, good. Now can we get on the US starting a program for addicts to get clean needles please? PLEASE?
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

@million.dollar.mouth.: I hope that this is not a threadjack--but we are talking about a way to possibly slow the transmition of HIV--and a clean needle program is another way to do that.
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Step aside, Son
05/20/09

@million.dollar.mouth.:
You know, you don't hear much about that any more. I wonder what the rate of infection for Aids is via IV drugs?
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Zombies make the heart grow fonder
05/20/09

@million.dollar.mouth.: I've seen needle exchange programs everywhere I have lived from CT to FL to VA to DC. I think this ring is a nice back up approach to prevention.
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colormeroutine
05/20/09

@Step aside, Son: Still high. But now lower than the rate of infection to straight women via vaginal sex-which I believe is now the highest transmission rate. Hence the discussion shift.

Not that we shouldn't still be talking about ALL infection pathways
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@Step aside, Son: In the U.S., the ratio of new HIV diagnoses for heterosexual contact versus injection drug use is about 4:3. Male-to-male sexual contact is still by far the most prevalent transmission category -- about 5x higher than heterosexual contact.
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Laulau
05/20/09

@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: Though DC isn't allowed to use public funds for needle exchange, which really limits the program.
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: Yes, I know that they do exist, but there needs to be a federally funded program that is much more readily available to addicts in all areas of the country. As a recovering addict, I know way too many people who have gotten HIV through the sharing of dirtly needles.
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tomatoheart
05/20/09

@Zombies make the heart grow fonder: Yeah, a lot of cities have need exchange programs, but they are illegal in a lot of instances and have to be privately funded.

I'm all for anything that assists in harm-reduction...ring or needle or whatever.
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

@Laulau: as are many states right now (not allowed to use public funds). The Government really needs to step in here.
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Laulau
05/20/09

@million.dollar.mouth.: The government has, unfortunately, stepped in - it's Congress's decision not to let DC use their public health funds for needle exchange. So much for "Home Rule".
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J.D.Regent
05/20/09

@million.dollar.mouth.: The Obama administration has been shockingly Bushlike in their resistance to harm reduction policies. the US has acted particularly scandalously in international harm reduction negotiation but for example, do you know that Obama BROKE a campaign promise to support needle exchange programs and is now telling Congress to keep the federal needle exchange ban? [stopthedrugwar.org]
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

@Laulau: Sad. Admitedly, I do not know enough about which states have done what to try to slow HIV transmision in this way, all I know is that there people need to let go of the attitude that addicts are people who don't care about life, don't contribute to society, etc, and that by making clean needles available we would be sending a message that using IV drugs is OK. All of this is BS, IMO.

Also, as for the rates of tramsmission via needle sharing vs sex, they go hand in hand in many cases....for instance, an person can get HIV by sharing a needle with an HIV positive person, then years later, unknowingly give it to a sexual partner. How HIV is transmited is very intertwined. So, in order to really make sure that "all bases" are covered in slowing the transmission HIV/AIDS, a safe needle exchange program is a necessity, IMO.
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G Gordon Liddy
05/20/09

@Step aside, Son: 1 in 3 HIV cases come from IV drug use.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@G Gordon Liddy: Where are you getting that statistic? According to latest CDC surveillance report, in 2007, 4939 of 42655 new HIV/AIDS diagnoses were attributed to injection drug use. That's about 12%.
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G Gordon Liddy
05/20/09

@Kivrin: Hm, I was editing a report yesterday about it. It might have said that 1 in 3 engaged in IV drug usage. I'll go back and look at it and let you know.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@G Gordon Liddy: Yeah, I'd be interested to know! Maybe your report was based on a study in which participants were more forthcoming than they are on formal case report forms (i.e., the info reported to the gov't). Case reports generally suffer from a lot of missing risk category information.
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million.dollar.mouth.
05/20/09

@J.D.Regent: Thank you for the link. Yes, this is one area where I am very dissapointed in the Obama administration.
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onydchic
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
The vaginally inserted ring releases multiple drugs that prevent HIV infection along with drugs

This creeps me out. Sorry.
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Eleanor Ramilly
05/20/09

@onydchic: What creeps you out? Modern medicine saving lives? Inserting things into your vagina? Internal drugs?
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
05/20/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: It's a bit questionable as to whether inserting antivirals into a perfectly healthy vagina is actually going to save lives. Yes, it's wonderful that it might prevent some HIV transmissions, but for casual use, when having sex with someone whose HIV status is unknown, chances are you're administering antivirals to a least one, if not two, completely healthy people, possibly weakening their immune defenses, or building superviruses, over time. I'm glad they're working on devices like this, but I hope more research is done before they go into widespread use.
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Eleanor Ramilly
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: How is it a bit questionable? If it prevents HIV transmissions than yes, it is saving lives. The other information you mentioned is valid and I'm not disagreeing with you, but suggesting that preventative measures aren't effective in saving lives because with casual use there could the mentioned side effects doesn't really make sense to me.

If this comes across as defensive, sorry. I don't think my response to the comment "this creeps me out, sorry" was unwarranted. It doesn't add anything to the discussion and research and drugs like this are necessary.
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jigglyball
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: Did they explicitly say that the ring would transmit ARVs to non-ring-wearing sex partner as well? I understood that only the partner wearing the ring would be exposed to legitimate doses of ARVs.
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
05/20/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: If there's a good chance that short term preventative measures could create long term disasters, then it's not really saving lives. If (and I'm totally iffing here, based on cursory knowledge and some studies, some of which have been linked to elsewhere in this thread)inserting antivirals into the vagina on a regular basis causes an imbalance, leading to irritation and yeast infections, which lead to an increase in susceptability to HIV (and to other STD's, which also increase the risk of contracting HIV), it may noy even prove effecively preventative within the lifespan of an individual woman who is repeatedly exposed to risk. I think there's a delicate balance between making sure this thing becomes available as soon as possible, because some women need it now, and making sure it's been fully investigated so they are not actually being exposed to more harm. It also seems, as most people have said, to be most useful for women who have limited control over their sexual partners and want to protect themselves-- in that case the benefit may be greater than the risk, but if the benefit isn't greater than the risk for everyone, it's not really useful if the product goes into the free market as an aids preventative, instead of as an emergency solution for women without other options.
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Eleanor Ramilly
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: I never said anything about the free market or casual use though? I guess I don't really understand why this is directed at me.
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
05/20/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: I was responding to you saying that it's absolutely saving lives by preventing transmission. My point was that it's possible that it's actually not, and I'd like to know more about it and hope that more information abut long term effects will be available before it goes into widespread use. Without further testing knowledge, I'm disagreeing with this part of what you said: "How is it a bit questionable? If it prevents HIV transmissions than yes, it is saving lives," for the reasons I stated above.

I am certainly not implying that you are personally responsible for the fact that global capitalism isn't always in line with good health policies, or wrong for being excited about this development. I just think the skepticism in the comment you initially replied to was justified, though I see your point that it could have been expressed more specifically.
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Eleanor Ramilly
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: I got you lady :)
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tomatoheart
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
between that and my nuva -- it'll be a party in my vagina.
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stoprobbers
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: The spermies can have a hula-hopping contest.
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tomatoheart
05/20/09

@stoprobbers Ille qui nos omnes servabit.: oh god, it will be like those Burning Man "hooper" kids!
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mysterygirl
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: I've always said that a man would have to jump through hoops to get into my vagina...
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chxation
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: Ring Toss time!
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Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!
05/20/09

@chxation: Dammit. I knew someone clever would get to this joke first!
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bangers
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: i was wondering about that...sometimes my nuvaring pops out during sex or decides it's in the mood to play ring toss on my partner's penis (which is ok and also hilarious--it can be out for up to three hours)...wouldn't there be a risk of this ring popping out as well? unless it's a lot smaller, i guess?
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scarletkitsch
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: I was under the impression that the HIV ring was also a contraceptive as well. So you wouldn't need a Nuva ring in conjunction with this? Am I wrong?

I've given up on the Nuva ring after it came out after sex without my noticing. The the kind of gift you want to leave in a boys bed.
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bangers
05/20/09

@scarletkitsch: ugh that happened to me two weeks ago. it fell out, i noticed but then forgot and surprise! three days later got my period!
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Ultraprison!
05/20/09

@tomatoheart: I love Nuvaring so much. Costs me $40 at PP, but totally worth it. So if I got this new ring, should I stack them like those little kid toys?

My boyfriend refers to sex with a Nuvaring as "sexy Horseshoes."
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sportz.star
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
Totally great news, but it'll be more exciting to read about the plan in place to distribute these throughout areas with high rates of HIV for free and actually get women to use it.
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lilbobbytables
05/20/09

@sportz.star: Yes! That is something I wanted to mention, but cannot get my lil cold-addled brain to function.
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jigglyball
05/20/09

@sportz.star: Yeah, that was my first thought. Is the Gates foundation on this? They do some good stuff in terms of actually creating distribution systems on the ground in developing nations. And, um, government-type organizations? My ignorance on distribution channels is showing.
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stoprobbers
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
As cool as this sounds, if you're JUST going to go with the ring (and it sounds like this is supposed to be used in conjunction with a condom, but I don't think everyone will use it that way), that is a HUGE FUCKING RISK TO TAKE.

Still... cool.
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PreposterousHypothesis
05/20/09

@stoprobbers Ille qui nos omnes servabit.: I think this will be much more useful for women who are NOT in consensual, egalitarian situations, and can therefore do something themselves to prevent transmission when the men aren't willing.
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Flackette Goes Retro
05/20/09

@stoprobbers Ille qui nos omnes servabit.: I think this is designed mostly for women who need some extra back-up against men who refuse to wear condoms (esp. in developing countries where HIV is rampant)
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Eleanor Ramilly
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
Is the ring capable of being inserted elsewhere..?
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stoprobbers
05/20/09

@Eleanor Ramilly: Like, in the butt?

Good question.
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samethingwedoeverynightpinky
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
Interesting, but if you used this on a regular basis, wouldn't you harm your vagina by constantly dousing it with antiviral drugs? Or am I confused about how this is supposed to work?
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NefariousNewt
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: As with anything treated by drugs, I'd be worried about the development of drug-resistant strains of HIV.
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@samethingwedoeverynightpinky: It's definitely possible -- there hasn't been that much research on long-term side effects of prophylactic ARV use (partly because these ARV drugs are relatively new). But I think this device could still be useful for women in certain situations...
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Kivrin
05/20/09

@NefariousNewt: That's already happening, thanks to people who still engage in risky behaviors after contracting HIV and entering treatment. So, yeah...it's a concern.
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Flackette Goes Retro
05/20/09

In reply to The Ring, Part II
This could be super-awesome for women who are unable (for various reasons) to insist that their partners wear condoms. Sounds like a win.
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PreposterousHypothesis
05/20/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: Agreed. The first thing I thought of were women in developing nations who are often unable to insist their partners wear condoms (whether for cultural reasons, or sadly, by force).
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tomatoheart
05/20/09

@Flackette Goes Retro: I wholeheartedly agree!
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LaMorena
05/20/09

@PreposterousHypothesis: Absolutely. This would have profound world health impications, especially in places where sexual assault is prevalent. It's horrible enough to think of the frequency of rape in some parts of the world (thinking of Eve Ensler's piece on the Congo), but at least the women would be spared the added trauma of unwanted pregnancy and AIDS transmission to both them and their children.
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