Jezebel 
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New York, 5:38 AM
Thu Dec 3
63 posts in the last 24 hours
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11/14/09
11/13/09
The male host started cross-examining her, with this skeptical hard edge to his voice that I so often hear men, even feminist men, use when the subject of rape comes up, like "When you say 'took advantage', what exactly do you mean?" I flipped the station, because that sort of thing triggers so many horrible memories for me. After flipping around, I accidentally flipped it back to the station and I heard the female host telling her "Honey, the first thing is to realize that he raped you and it's not your fault"
I still turned the station, because I wanted to cheer up with some music, and I didn't want to hear it if the guy had a counterpoint. I guess my point is, it's good for us to raise one another's consciousness. It helps us deal with the pandemic of rape in the world we live in. But it's not enough when so many men think it's okay, and think it's our problem, or think vigilance against false accusations is equally important. It will never end until men decide to cut it out. #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
Commiserating among women has really been hugely helpful in my healing; I just wanted to point out the limitations of that, and where men, generally speaking, are falling short, because it's to our detriment. #rape
11/13/09
People have a fantastic capacity for denial when it comes to their own wrongdoing. If anything, these guys just wonder why they keep getting in these situations, and if the women realized what cool, nice guys they were, they would have wanted to sleep with them anyway. Repeated instances probably just reaffirm their beliefs that women in general are too dumb to realize how awesome they are, and that the best way to get "sex" is to liquor the ladies up and be a little forceful. They will fool themselves into thinking everyone does it.
And other people will agree with them, because women will think in their head that either they'd never put themselves in a situation like that, or that they aren't so "frigid," and men will be scared that the same accusations will be used against them. #rape
11/13/09
(1) Have you ever been in a situation where you tried, but for various reasons did not succeed, in having sexual intercourse with an adult by using or threatening to use physical force (twisting their arm, holding them down, etc.) if they did not cooperate?
(2) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with someone, even though they did not want to, because they were too intoxicated (on alcohol or drugs) to resist your sexual advances (e.g., removing their clothes)?
(3) Have you ever had sexual intercourse with an adult when they didn’t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn’t cooperate?
(4) Have you ever had oral sex with an adult when they didn’t want to because you used or threatened to use physical force (twisting their arm; holding them down, etc.) if they didn’t cooperate? #rape
11/13/09
They just don't want to be called rapists. #rape
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(And even though I'm a sorority girl, I really mean that in the non-sorority rush way. :-) ) #rape
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11/13/09
Sorry to say it, but you can laugh a rape in a movie, just as you can laugh at a car accident, a murder or the end of the freakin' world (ever seen Dr. Strangelove?). IT'S NOT REAL. Please stop comparing my enjoyment of that movie to me condoning real life date rape. #rape
11/13/09
birth of a nation!
because you know, lynching is bad in real life but HILARIOUS on film. the the kkk may be a domestic terrorist group in real life, but on the big screen they're just loveable tramps having a good time! #rape
11/13/09
And as far as racism being funny in a film, two words: Blazing Saddles. #rape
11/13/09
Really? Because I don't. And neither, I'd imagine, do women who have been raped. What if your mother/daughter/sister had been raped? Would it still be so hilarious? Rape isn't funny. It is never funny. Playing it off as something hilarious because it's in a movie and "not real" is downplaying a serious, serious issue.
What? I'm a humorless feminazi who can't take a joke? Tell me that when I'm standing by your side when you've been raped. #rape
11/13/09
maybe you're only repulsed by certain types of rape or rape in certain contexts so therefore you can overcome your repulsion and enjoy the humor in sexual violence against women. i, on the other hand, must be humorless because i find no comedic pleasure in rape.
also, blazing saddles was a satire of the racism in hollywood myth-making westerns (that being said im actually not comfortable with the liberal usage of the nword in that film). i dont think that seth rogan was satirically raping anna farris.
addendum: also, in your OP you said that the article was bringing down a serious discussion. you dont think that making a joke of rape lowers a serious discussion? REALLY?
11/13/09
That's not the point of my comment, the point is that just because I found that scene funny doesn't mean that I am trivializing or condoning rape in real life. How anyone could come to such a conclusion seriously bothers me. Do you condone every action that you laugh at in a film? #rape
11/13/09
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who here told you this to begin with? You made the original comment in this thread. #rape
11/13/09
Condoning a character's actions in a film and laughing at them for their humorous value are two different things. In the reality of the film that scene is funny. In reality, its not. There's a difference.
Finally, yes, this is bringing down a serious discussion by means of distraction. The post was about a study talking about how men who have committed rape define their actions. We aren't talking about that now are we? #rape
11/13/09
"This thinking also trivializes date-rape and rape involving alcohol, leading to scenes like the one in Observe and Report (pictured above) in which sex with an unconscious woman is played for laughs. " #rape
11/13/09
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I enjoy that movie for the reality it presents. And in that reality that scene is funny. However, not everyone will see it that way and it might reinforce their negative views. But I don't think you can blame a filmmaker for the (incorrect) way their film is interpreted.
In this film the scene works, but if we starting seeing dozens of movies with the same kind of humor I think that would be a problem. #rape
11/13/09
Sorry, I just don't think there is. Probably because, as a woman, there isn't really a difference between those realities for me because there is the possibility that the reality of that scene could actually be my reality. when a woman is raped on screen, women watching know that that is a reality they may very well have to deal with at some point (if they haven't already) or a reality that their friends or women in their family have dealt with. it is a very real threat that women across the world have to live with everyday, and to have it light-heartedly portrayed for the cheap giggles of teenage boys only trivializes it. Do you have any clue what rape really is or what it actually does to a woman? If you did, I don't think you'd be laughing.
Your cognitive dissonance is astounding. You say its fiction so its ok, but im sorry, its not a fiction--in the context of the movie or out. its a fucking reality for many women and its something that there is truly NO HUMOR in for them.
and shit im going to go one step further because rape-trivialization makes me so upset and add: laughing at rape is misogynistic. pure and simple. rape dehumanizes and brutalizes women. laughing at the dehumanization and brutilization of women is misogynistic.
"Finally, yes, this is bringing down a serious discussion by means of distraction. The post was about a study talking about how men who have committed rape define their actions. We aren't talking about that now are we?"
Actually, in a way we are. The post said that men will admit to rape if you don't call it rape. We know rape is bad, we know rape is wrong, but we don't actually think that the ACTIONS are. In the film, the actions are rape but since the word rape is not used and the film doesn't frame it as rape, we don't (or we're not supposed to) think its wrong. Seth Rogan's character would have to answer yes to the second question, but since the word RAPE isn't used, we can all enjoy (?) it. #rape
11/13/09
Ok, I think I understand what you're saying (within the context of the reality of the film [which is, of course, fake] the scene was funny to you.) The problem with that, though, is that art and media don't exist in a vacuum. Real life leaks into media in that media, consciously or not, reflects the culture and attitudes of the world its makers live in. Then, in turn, that media reinforces and spreads these cultural leanings. You can't confine that scene to just the fake-reality of the movies itself. In however small a measure, that scene reflects and then reinforces rape culture in the real world. Every time we laugh at a joke made at the expense of a rape victim, or one that depends on the audience buying into rape myths, we minimize rape in real life, because jokes (and movies, books, televisions shows, art, etc.) are all inextricably related to real life. #rape
11/13/09
Before 1975, women could not accuse their spouses of rape; even if they were estranged or legally separated. Women in North Carolina didn't have the right to accuse their husbands of rape until 1993.
It's no surprise that men are so fluid in terms of what does and does not constitute rape. #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
@winner: I'm sure the men in your life would be offended if they thought you believed they have a "fluid" definition of what it means to force a woman to have sex.
11/13/09
I like menz! And I don't tend toward sweeping generalizations! At least I try not to. :) #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
The former is certainly more about power and control more than it really is about sex. And I agree that that kind of situation should not be on the same scale as sex. However, I'm not sure that's always the case with the latter. I think that sometimes it is just a guy who really wants to get laid at this party and pushes a girl farther than she is comfortable without really grasping the signifigance of his actions.
Hum. Reading over my post I feel like it is relevant to mention that I am not making any excuses for rapists and I think rape in both instances is deplorable and disgusting. #rape
11/13/09
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That's why they have no trouble talking about it without sugarcoating it; you know saying "i convinced her", or "i roofied her" or "i made her" but they have a real problem with the word "rape." For them rape is when you take something that is not yours. But in their heads "pussy" is always theirs. Taking what is theirs should not be a problem. #rape
11/13/09
IMHO a lot of what would fit the dictionary definition of sex functions in this very nebulous realm where a lot of factors outside of lust, attraction, passion and desire are present. But that part of sex is very rarely talked about. It bothers me because it in turn perverts our idea of rape. And then shit like "i don't believe he raped her cos he's so good looking and she's so ugly and he would never be attracted to a girl like that" gets said and gets used as rationalizations to get rapists off the hook. #rape
11/13/09
Ugh. What a sickening thought. #rape
11/13/09
I wonder if 'I've got friends, so I can't be a rapist' could also apply. It makes sense that good looking men with girlfriends could assume that they can't be rapists if they're not hiding out in alleys and waving knives, even if all the evidence is there. Especially if their own friends and occasionally their victims are happy to reinterpret reality for them so they don't have to confront it. #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
I'm taking a course on feminism and sexual assault right now, and it seems as though the change in this law has removed the idea of "gray rape" entirely- the argument of implied consent goes out the window, and the court looks for the defendant to have taken "reasonable steps" for consent. Not that the Canadian legal system totally understands everything, yet, but they're getting closer.
I'm using a lot of quotation marks, but they're necessary. Reasonable steps vary on the situation, and Gray Rape is a non-enforcable, not legal term perpetuated by Cosmo in 2007 ([www.cosmopolitan.com]) as part of their rape denial/forgiveness movement.
The more these studies are done, the more we're going to see the prevalence of sexual assault, and maybe work towards a standard where the perpetrators are targeted for their behaviours, versus the current victim-blaming standard #rape
11/13/09
Men really need to be made more aware of the implications and effects of these things on the victim and be taught to recognize their privelleged position in society. I wish I had a good idea on how to make that happen, but I don't. I have yet to meet a male that really gets it, even the more aware ones among them #rape
11/13/09
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And by the by, the point of the study was not "Hey look at this tiny percentage! See, most men don't rape women. Rad!" but that these men, unwittingly or otherwise, have raped women and felt that it was perfectly fine to have sex with a woman who was too drunk to know what she was doing or to coerce a woman into a sexual act "by force or threat of force."
Only a small percent of high school kids bring guns to school and shoot their teachers and peers. I don't care that it was a small minority. It still happened.
11/13/09
@colormeroutine: Well, yeah. Obviously. I thought that went without saying, but yes, I agree. #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
Luckily I know he'd never use his powers for evil, but he has no idea what it's like to be at the mercy of someone like that.
I'm not sure how much he gets it, I have (many times) tried to explain the difference between his position as a man and mine as a woman, but there's no way for him to really get it.
He probably hasn't been overpowered by anyone since he was a child playfighting with his dad. And he certainly never worries about it happening again. #rape
11/13/09
When we let it "go without saying" what we're really doing is downplaying it #rape
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Sorry for rambling off all my questions and ponderings. #rape
11/13/09
And yes, the point of Jezebel's coverage of the studies was whether or not the rapists were unwitting or not (yes, unwitting is a word, no, "witting" is not), but, from what I gathered at least, the studies themselves were about what I said they were about in my last post.
11/13/09
11/13/09
But when you start using rape to make gross generalizations about "men" and what we can "brush off"-- well, my opinions on that aren't delicate, either. That's just silly and offensive, IMHO.
And it's not even supported by the facts. It's worth noting that the 120 men (of 1882) in the survey who admitted rape/attempted rape were also much more prone to other violent acts, including domestic abuse, child abuse and child beatings.
So what you have (in the words of the Yes Means Yes! post) is a "relatively small group of men, somewhere between 4% and 8% of the population, who do it again … and again … and again."
[yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com] #rape
11/13/09
11/13/09
So we watched the movie and we get to that scene and my bf was incredibly disturbed, as I was. We talked about and it was interesting that when I described the scene to him, he didn't think it was really rape, and when he saw it, he thought it was definitely rape.
I think that on some level consent/alcohol/sex is confusing for men. And when both parties are drunk, I think it becomes difficult/impossible for either party to give or know if they have received clear consent.
But when you are sober and watching that scene - it is so obvious. And gross and disturbing. Rape. #rape
11/13/09
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also funny (disturbing) that david edelstein called it the "funniest movie of the year"
when I think the movie's writer summed it up when he has the character walk out of the closet and say "I though this was going to be funny but really it is just sad" #rape
11/13/09
By my math, that means in a school of 20,000 students, with roughly 10,000 men, that means that there were about 1,300 rapists walking around on campus every day. #rape
11/13/09
The cognitive dissonance is astounding. To think, there are guys out there who think a normal sexual interaction involves a mute cringing girl, verbal insults, and crying afterwards. How do they not realize that uhm, its RAPE. Sick fucks, all of them. #rape
11/13/09
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11/13/09
ugh, for a long time I just repressed it; it was just a bad night, I was fucked up, I'm paranoid, etc etc. I pretty much bought into rape culture and accepted it as well, a mater of fact. This is what happens to girls who drink too much, maybe I shouldn't have been a dirty skag, maybe I shouldn't have talked to him that night, etc etc.
I'm nauseous thinking about it, I'm older now and wiser and I want to tell someone, but... why? just to have the person respond with "well maybe you shouldn't have been drinking" or "why didn't you fight him off?"
complicit. Practically everyone is complicit in this rape culture.
Sorry to be a downer everyone, I've just held on to this for so long., its nice to encounter people who understand. #rape