Hope everyone here is treating themselves as pre-pregnant at all times. Because if the anti-abortion movement can slowly but surely work to take away your right to have Plan B and regular birth control, I don't see why jailing drug addicted or alcoholic mothers wouldn't be the first step in going after women who got pregnant while on Spring Break and basically had their fetuses steeped in booze for two weeks, or who didn't realize they were pregnant for three months and kept smoking pot every day. #pregnancy
For the record, this woman was two years into a three year probation before she tested positive for methamphetamines. To revoke probation for the first probationary infraction is not common, even in Texas. To revoke probation for the first probationary infraction AND immediately issue a warrant for arrest is DOUBLY not common, even in Texas.
What you have to understand is that this woman and her situation represent your rights as a woman. It is not a question of morality or character; it is a question of constitutional rights. Specifically, YOUR constitutional rights. If the government is allowed into her uterus, who's to say that, given the right circumstances they will not be allowed in yours.
Not to compare the two but there is a reason prosecutors do not chose female jurors in statutory rape cases; we judge. We sit back and we judge a woman who "gets herself into" a situation we could not envision getting into ourselves and we punish her for it - even if it means sacrificing our constitutional rights. #pregnancy
Eh, she chose to keep the fetus. Presumably she wants the kid. Therefore I guess you could say she chooses to be a parent...and some aspects of bad parenting are illegal. Legally speaking: You cannot give a minor alcohol. You cannot give them illegal drugs. You can't endanger their welfare. You cannot neglect them. You cannot abuse them. If a parent does any of those things the state intervenes. When she chose not to abort, she chose to be a parent.
p.s. You can get abortions when you're in jail ...and sometimes at the taxpayers expense even.
p.p.s. "....because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime..." Um, yes, it is. The prisons are full of non-pregnant drug addicts so this is just not true. #pregnancy
@Vulcan Has No Moon: Getting an abortion is often no easy feat for pro-choice, moneyed upper-class women who live in certain areas or have certain jobs. I have no idea what this woman's views are on abortion. Perhaps she wanted one but spent her money on drugs (I hear drug addicts do that). Maybe she thinks having a kid will help her, or was raised pure pro-life. I have seen enough evidence to know that being pro-life often translates into 'just have the baby' and nothing else, just as long as another little angel makes it into the world (to fend for itself). #pregnancy
@Pizza!Pizza!Pizza!: I live in a place where the state is flooded with meth orphans. A few months back someone in law enforcement tried (and failed) to stop a woman (awaiting trial) from getting an abortion. It hit the news in our rather conservative area that the state was providing abortions for women in jail...and in fact (not so) subtly encouraging them. The local social services can no longer handle the burden and women are being punished for bringing meth babies into the world....and getting off when they discard the evidence, so to speak. I have heard other places with meth problems are doing the same. #pregnancy
The group National Advocates for Pregnant Women tracks these kinds of cases -- this shit will chill you: [advocatesforpregnantwomen.org]
For example:
"Regina McKnight suffered a stillbirth, was charged with homicide by child abuse and was tried and convicted. Although Ms. McKnight had no criminal record, she was sentenced to twenty years imprisonment with eight years suspended. On appeal, the South Carolina State Supreme Court held that viable fetuses are persons under the state's homicide statute, effectively transforming a stillbirth from personal and family tragedy to "depraved heart" homicide. The decision permits conviction on any evidence that a pregnant woman engaged in activity "public[ly] know[n]" to be "potentially fatal" to a fetus. No one in this case believed that Ms. McKnight had any intention of harming the fetus or losing the pregnancy. Had Ms. McKnight sought to end her pregnancy by having an illegal third trimester abortion, her sentence would have been two years in jail. Experts working on her appeals conclude that her stillbirth was caused by an infection wholly unrelated to drug use."
The specifics of Lovill's individual case aside (would she have been jailed for a probation violation if she hadn't been pregnant? I think maybe not, given the ADA's quote above) , there is a trend toward jailing/prosecuting pregnant women by treating them as vessels for future children, especially if drug use is involved. #pregnancy
@greeneyedfem: AMEN, sister. It amazes me that so many women are as willing to overlook their rights as they are soon as the question of morality comes into play.
The implications of this case are far greater than whether or not this woman is fit to carry a child (which she is certainly not). #pregnancy
@greeneyedfem: South Carolina regards the fetus as a person for these sorts of criminal cases. In the MUSC case, the Supreme Court suggested (but did not hold) that a South Carolina hospital could drug test pregnant women, and report the results to the police if the primary goal of the program was not prosecution, but to get them to rehab. Of course, this would just be at state hospitals, so it would only affect poor women. #pregnancy
I had to go over a case like this for a law class. It was very similar, but the woman was addicted to sniffing glue and she had already given birth to two children (also, I'm Canadian, so was the woman in question, the legal system, etc).
She had previously given birth to two children with severe birth defects who had to be cared for at the government's expense in mental health facilities. She was incarcerated while pregnant with the third.
It was a very complicated week for our class. I am pro-choice, and I agree that the legal system shouldn't penalize pregnant women....but something should be done. There has to be a better alternative than just letting her sniff all the glue she can afford to avoid infringing on her rights.
How about placing her in a mental health facility instead of prison? Wouldn't that be the best option for her and her potential children?
As for this American case. She violated her parole, this is true. But since when has anyone gotten clean in prison? This clearly isn't going to help anyone involved (be they fetus or born alive). #pregnancy
@Mushu_the_educated_whale: I agree, also I feel that babies born to addicts are far more likely top require state financial support and state run health care, etc etc. I don't think the fetus has rights, but don't I have rights as a taxpayer to prevent what extra expense she would incur with a child with sever, preventable disorders? #pregnancy
@Raised-byHeathens: If this weren't Jezebel and if I couldn't go on the assumption that you are pro-choice, I would read your arguments as typical of a conservative-leaning male.
I don't consider my viewpoints extreme but I do have an interest in both constitutional law and women's rights and while your totally human, middle-of-the-road POV doesn't surprise me, it does make me a little sad.
@Raised-byHeathens: Your rights as a taxpayer are to vote in people who agree with you. You can also run for office if you want to. You don't have the right to tell other people how to live because they're using "your tax dollars." You're using everyone else's sacred tax dollars when you drive on the roads, call the police, call the fire department, go to county records to get a copy of a birth certificate, or take a government job. #pregnancy
@Alys Brangwin can't stop the beat: I absolutely understand why i would be taken to task for this statement. It's not a great view point, but like the article suggests, there don't seem to be any great stances to take. it doesn't feel right to say, go for it, do what you want while you're pregnant nor does it sit well to incarcerate women who are doing with their own bodies what they choose. it seems like the only stance that *I* personally can take it one that takes into account the common society that will inevitably be affected by these decisions. I am by definition, a socialist and i believe in the most good for the most people, and think that i pay taxes to ensure that i and everyone around me is guaranteed the same common rights, and services, and feel like our government should do more. that being said, it doesn't seem to help anyone if everyone is carrying burdens that are easily preventable. i don't know, i don't like any of the possible stances i could take. it's just such a sad story that feels like we all should be able to do something to help her, and in helping make things better for her make things better for everyone. it was, however, poorly stated. #pregnancy
First off she should be in jail for violating her probation. Simple as that. You're on probation therefore you can't use drugs and expect nothing to happen. Now on to the hard part..she's a repeat offender and she's pregnant and is not stopping with the drugs. Why shouldn't she be in jail? She doesn't appear to have intentions of terminating this pregnancy, so we should just let her go ahead and harm a potential person, who will end up costing her [or the state] money to help a child with problems and make her already complicated life, more complicated. If she wasn't a criminal and just a friend of yours would you be okay with your friend doing meth..coke etc with no intention of getting an abortion?Would you not do all you could to help them get their shit together? This is that, but for a criminal.Her pregnancy is not what's getting her locked up, her unfortunate circumstance of being a drug addict is and lack of common sense. The pregnancy is a secondary thing and I see it as help, honestly.
If they sent her to a treatment program I wonder how it would work? Maybe well, maybe not. But the bottom line is, she violated her probation and for the sake of the child [I'm using child because she intends to keep it] it is best that shes there off the drugs and with health care. She can barely take care of herself if shes making these decisions, let the fetus shes choosing to turn into a child have a chance beyond her.
My fiance is a cop and I hear stories like this all the time, maybe this colors my response, but its frustrating as hell to keep seeing the cycle repeat itself when you offer help and they still choose the detrimental paths.
How about house arrest and an anklet? There seems to be no easy answer to this. Forcing a woman to have a healthy child because she's having a child and not a termination is taking away her right to self determination. It's protecting the fetus at the expense of the mother's freedom. BUT she has violated her probation.
@sybann: *shrug* It's common to hospitalize the mentally ill before they give birth so that they will not be alone with a baby they are likely to harm - most of these women know that the child will be taken away and so will give birth at home alone.
When I was anorexic, I was hospitalized with a lady, Daniella, who was 8 months pregnant and massively bipolar. She had two children already which had been removed from her due to neglect/abuse (depending on whether she was manic or depressive at the time) and she was about to give birth. She chain smoked, she cursed out everyone around her, she was very nearly violent but not quite. She was paranoid (I was on my way to the bathroom while she was on her way to her room, both at the end of the same hallway, and she suddenly stopped and asked me if I was following her. She did however believe my reply of "all I want is to pee!")
Daniella was very ill but was not a danger to herself or others - except her kids. Because of this, the govt. decided to put in the psych ward for the last weeks of her pregnancy. She refused her meds and often had them forced on her when she became so wild that she could hurt herself or others. The nurses hated injecting her with antipsychotics and sedatives for the sake of the fetus, but had no choice. Daniella was adamant about keeping the baby but in addition to being unqualified to care for it, the only real reason she wanted to keep him or her (I left before she gave birth) was because others wanted to take him away. Her sister had custody of her other kids.
Towards the end of my hospitalization, she began to approach sanity. I think she even began to internalize that not only was her kid not gonna stay with her, but that it was probably for the best. That was so sad.
Being hospitalized for anorexia (a severe disorder to be sure, but not psychosis) taught me so much about mental illness and humanity in general. I was exposed to more raw emotion in those months than I had before or have since. It was an educational experience.
My point is, sometimes hospitalizing a pregnant mother for the good of the potential child is necessary. Before I knew Daniella I wouldn't have thought so, but now I know better. Is jailing a pregnant woman the same as hospitalizing? I don't know.
Just my 13 cents (it was a long post!!) #pregnancy
@nagumi: And it was a thoughtful reply based on experience - I am sorry (and in a way "glad" - wrong word) for both of you. Thanks for your response. #pregnancy
@sybann: If you'd like to know, I now consider myself fully recovered. I'm out of therapy (with therapists' blessings) and out of weekly nutritionist appt's (with her blessing as well) and off any meds that I was on (besides a mild sleep aid, but I've been an insomniac since early childhood - so there!)
I own my own business, am completely independent (no more momma money) - hell, I even volunteer and pay taxes, not to mention feed an entire feral cat colony.
Being in hospital was the worst thing I ever went through... and it saved my life. When I went in, 4 years ago, I was told that on my current track I had six months to live. Hospital was terrifying and horrible and I still have flashbacks (actual PTSD stuff) about it - but without it, I wouldn't be alive today. I went from a charity case - someone who couldn't hold down a job, was living on disability and money from my parents, someone who didn't expect and wasn't expected to make anything of themselves (let alone live for long) to a small business owner who, just yesterday met with a real estate attourney about the option of buying my first, own house.
Any anorexics (or otherwise sick) folks reading this: Hospital is scary. And awful. It sucks. And it saved my life.
Wow I'm spewing up a lot of emotional stuff today. Ah well - back to watching stargate! #pregnancy
As I've seen some medical studies and articles, I'm afraid the arguments made for pregnant women will be pushed to women who might get pregnant some time in the future. If drug use before pregnancy causes low birth weight, will they then punish young women who may one day become pregnant with a child that could be affected?
And beyond that, if a we had easier access to birth control, pre- AND post-conception, perhaps we would have fewer women getting pregnant when they don't want to or know it's not a good time or able to abort (ideally unwanted) children that they know will be affected by a behavior they are not able to control at that time. #pregnancy
If she's chosen to continue with the pregnancy, then she is responsible for the livelihood of the baby while it's still physically dependent on her. I'm sure if men could have babies and they were opting to abuse the baby they've chosen to keep while in utero, then they would also be held liable for causing it harm.
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: I'm not sure it's even worth wondering or assuming what the world would be like if men could get pregnant. It would fundamentally change all of humanity to such an extreme degree, who knows what kind of discussions we'd be having in terms of fetuses and child care? #pregnancy
Exactly I agree 100%. I don't see what people aren't getting with this. If you intend to get an abortion and your partying it up fine, but if you choose to go on with your pregnancy it then becomes a potential person with the potential for a whole host of problems. #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: I hear you, I really do. But to what extent is she responsible? Should a woman be arrested for smoking or drinking while pregnant? For drinking caffiene or having a high stress profession? What about for continuing to drive a car, or engaging in intense physical activity? If my baby is harmed or dies because I refuse a csection or some other intervention, should I be held legally liable for that decision?
I'm with you that a woman who chooses to keep a baby has an obligation to help that baby be born healthy. I'm just not sure what responsibility the state has in making sure she does. #pregnancy
@lizdexia: All these questions are interesting 'cause I'm sure I've heard examples of many of them happening, and probably you have too. I believe that women have been arrested for refusing a C-section.
I know here in Orlando women have been kicked out of bars for entering while pregnant--not even trying to drink or smoke, just going INTO a bar. Women here have been refused alcohol sales. When I get closer to my due date my husband is going to have to pick up the liquor for the house parties even though I usually do because it's easier, just because I don't want to be humiliated like that. #pregnancy
@lizdexia: My thoughts exactly. Why stop in utero? Why not prosecute parents of children with obesity. Perhaps we should ban formula and force all women to breastfeed. It's a slippery slope! #pregnancy
@lizdexia: It's a slippery slope to be sure. However, watching a baby born crack-addicted is truly one of the saddest things in the world. To abort is one thing, to bring a drug-addicted child into the world is a conscientious choice to cause harm. I don't think a woman should be held legally liable for every decision she makes while pregnant, but smoking crack in front of a child would be a prosecutable offense (child endangerment), so why isn't smoking crack while that baby's in your stomach also considered an offense? I know I'm imagining a land of make-believe when I hope that all women who choose to be mothers would do whatever they can to make their child's entry into the world a safe one, but still there's gotta be some sort of defense for this potential kiddo. I don't know. My inner-feminist is fighting with my inner-child advocate and it's hard to be so black and white. But I feel where you're coming from. #pregnancy
@winner: But people are much more than the laws they are governed by. Granted, law should be absent of human emotion. However, even the law recognizes that things are not so cut-and-dry and their are instances in which the "letter of the law does not apply." That's why laws can be changed via higher courts when they are no longer relevant or plausible. #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: Deeming the laws that support this particular case "no longer relevant or plausible" is, in essence, handing over the rights the fourteenth amendment affords you.
The beauty of the constitution is that it is both strict and flexible in terms of interpretation. It lives, as far as I'm concerned. This, however, is not a matter of interpretation as her incarceration was a clear violation of the fourteenth amendment. In terms of the law, this is rather cut and dry.
If this woman were my best friend or sister I'd slap her into next week for being an idiot but I'd defend her rights. #pregnancy
@winner: Legally, she violated her probation by testing positive for drugs in the first place. Perhaps the baby-issue was secondary. And even if it wasn't, at what point does she have to pay for the harm that she's willfully creating? She's testament to the fact that abuse can begin in-utero. And you don't have to slap sense into her, instead, just be willing to babysit her kid as it yowling and writhing in pain as it withdraws from it's cocaine addiction; that's what a friend would do.
Not trying to be bitchy, but man, she's dead-ass, all-around wrong and there should be some protection for the baby/fetus/potential human in question. #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: please. if a man smokes in front of his pregnant wife, can he be charged with child endangerment?
if anyone smokes in front of a pregnant woman, period, can they be charged with child endangerment?
no. but...if a woman smokes while pregnant...should we be able to put her in jail so she CAN'T smoke?
cigarettes are drugs. they are dangerous, addictive drugs that cause tons of problems with newborns. the fact that they are legal doesn't make them un-drugs. so...if we are ok with locking up/punishing/incarcerating a pregnant methhead....by extension, we are ok with incarcerating a pregnant woman who is 1. a smoker , 2. anorexic, 3. an alcoholic 4. drives without a seatbelt... #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: If we consider her fetus a person, we have to consider every aborted fetus a murder victim and then arrest every woman who's had an abortion. And friends are also under no obligation to care for their friends' (hypothetically) sick infants. #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: Testing positive for drugs while on probation does not typically get you thrown into jail. It just doesn't work that way and it's already been ruled by a lower court that she was unjustly prosecuted. This is not a question of her character but her rights. Protection at what cost? At what point do you suggest a woman give up her rights in the interest of the fetus? Yours is not a new argument; it's been used by pro-lifers for years.
And her baby, almost two now, was born healthy and is in the care of her family.
I agree that "something needs to be done" but you don't enact change by depriving someone of their rights. #pregnancy
@kristinab: Yea, this argument has been used and I pretty much said I don't know what the punishment should be, but there should be something. I already said it's a slippery slope and since someone pretty much said the same thing before you and I agreed, I'm not totally sure why you're bringing it up again now. Not being snippy, but seriously, no clustering, please. #pregnancy
@voteforme: Please save this one for someone who's not pro-choice. I've worked for Planned Parenthood and NARAL, I know the pro-lifer arguments and I've walked through more protesters than you can imagine. I also know that there's a gray area. And that gray area is that kid she's CHOOSING to have. "Choosing" being the operative word. At what point is she responsible for her choices? It's not that we consider her child a person, it's that she considers her child a person and morally she should not expose her child to harm. This is not a moral argument, I know. But she never has to take responsibility for anything? Really?! I know her body, her choice...but seriously that's all kinds of fucked up. What would be your possible solutions to this problem? And the whole caring for your friend's baby bit...yea, totally a far-fetched example. But I've care from drug-addicted babies and I feel that many people's arguments would dry up fast if they see the potential damage this woman could have caused. #pregnancy
@Ulookinatmyjunk, JOC: At the end of the day, it's just not our business. It's not my child and it falls outside the parameters of what the law is allowed to care about. And for someone who claims to be pro-choice, you're spouting some suspiciously pro-life rhetoric. It doesn't matter if she considers her baby person, and even if she claimed that she did, there's no way to know if she's telling the truth. It doesn't help anyone to start making assumptions regarding the intentions of everyone with a uterus. #pregnancy
@voteforme: I don't have to "claim" to be anything. I'm still working tirelessly towards the goal of protecting choice. I've dedicated the last 6 years of my life to insuring this right stays safe and legal for all women. I'm not just someone on the internet "claiming" this shit; I do this shit. Still, this woman made a choice...when is she responsible for her choices? And the whole "not my kid, not my problem" argument is simply lazy thinking. Many kids born addicted to drugs actually become "your" problem as many of them will be dependent on the system for years to come, either through foster care, welfare programs or Medicaid/care services...all supported by your tax dollars. #pregnancy
To me, your last question, "Is there ever a "right" to intervene?" is the most salient in this instance. Probationees like Lovill lose a number of their rights for the duration of their probation. Search and seizure standards, for example, are relaxed.
The court always has the right to put someone who is violating the terms of their probation into jail or prison. When judges hear violation of probation cases, they weigh the circumstances of the violation and determine whether the violator should be incarcerated or have his or her probation extended or altered. In Lovill's case, I imagine her pregnancy was another factor to be weighed. It says at the beginning that she dropped positive several times over the course of her probation. At least in my criminal court experience, it is not unusual that she would have to serve time for that violation. Her pregnancy was probably just the icing on the cake, so to speak. #pregnancy
If you can't charge a person based on their "status", then do we stand back when a child is malnourished? Do we step aside when a child is neglected? No. Once a fetus is born, a mother or father is responsible for the child's well being. Why not before?
What the difficulty is that women are the sole "carriers" of babies. I'm sorry, men cannot become pregnant. I assure you: if they could (and I would love for it to happen!), and they harmed the fetus because they took drugs, we would have a case against them, too. Since women can, they're perceived as being unfairly punished. Well, perhaps it's unfair because biology made it so.
The only thing that worries me is that this can be used against the right to abort. Other than that, I have no real problem with this. #pregnancy
@deeemer: Men may not be able to get pregnant, but they're not letting that stop them from harming fetuses – the number one cause of death among pregnant women is murder (usually by a partner or ex). #pregnancy
Not only do I think that the law should not intercede for the rights of the fetus, I have a hard time seeing how prison is a better place to carry out a pregnancy.
And I think this is the most important line: "No, she said, because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime — even for a pregnant woman." There are plenty of activities that are "bad" for pregnant women: being on drugs, drinking, smoking, lifting heavy objects. But none of these are illegal, and to use any of them as a reason to incarcerate a pregnant woman is unconscionable. Pro-choice means allowing a woman to make choices about her body AFTER pregnancy, too. #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: I really can't get behind this argument. There is a spectrum of things that are potentially harmful to a fetus. I imagine hard drugs is pretty high on the list. A crack addiction and a glass of wine a week are not the same.
Agreed that prison is the absolute wrong place for her to be. #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: Sooo, being pro-choice means I should think it's ok for a mom to drive drunk with her kids in the car? Or smoke crack while cooking them dinner? #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: But having illegal drugs in your system while on probation IS a crime - a violation of probation. In Lovill's case, I believe that this is what matters. #pregnancy
@Antrack: See, I'm confused about that. Why didn't they revoke her probation BEFORE she was pregnant if she was already testing positive for drugs? #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: Oddly enough being in prison can actually be an extremely good thing for a pregnant woman, namely because there's free prenatal care you wouldn't get on the outside. #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: agree she should not be incarcerated. I can't agree that she should be able to do whatever the hell she wants with her body, regardless of how that will affect her child once it is born. Also, lifting heavy objects is a bit different than smoking crack while pregnant. I'm still pro-choice, but I think things are complicated when you consider that carrying a pregnancy to term means that child will live with the potentially huge consequences of your choice to take drugs. #pregnancy
@Antrack: Uh, that's not a given (namely her being preggo as the sole motivating reason). It seriously depends on factors that have nothing to do with the criminal namely: the judge; the prosecutor's willingness to seek a revocation; state jail crowding (a non-federal prison issue); and how pissed off your parole officer is. There could have been a myriad of reasons and inherent in all of these is the discretion to put you back in prison.
@Antrack: I've seen it somewhat routinely, especially in the pre-sentencing context (where you're on bond). But it definitely depends on the preferences of a myriad of actors. #pregnancy
@colormeroutine: you don't have to think its okay, according to this argument, you just have to think its illegal to jail them for it. I'm not sure I agree, but there's a difference between thinking something is wrong (cheating, lying, being mean) and thinking someone
should go to jail #pregnancy
@Antrack: My boyfriend went back for having nunchuks in his room for fun and bringing an ice cream to the parole meeting. People have been jailed for less #pregnancy
@Penny: Of course they're not the same. I didn't mean to sound like I was equating crack addiction to drinking a glass of wine a week - I was only saying they neither are a reason to put a pregnant woman in jail. Sorry if I was unclear. #pregnancy
@colormeroutine: Of course not. You don't have to think any of those things are okay (and I don't either). I just meant (and maybe wasn't clear) that she shouldn't go to jail for doing something simply because she was doing it while she was pregnant. #pregnancy
@Cerridwen: I didn't mean to say that they were the same thing. I just meant that they weren't things you should put a person in jail for, in my opinion. Sorry for being unclear. And I absolutely think that drug use during pregnancy is complicated - I just don't think incarceration is the answer. #pregnancy
@girl.of.your.dreams: Yeah, we can certainly agree that incarceration isn't really solving any problems here. I think some people (not you) in the comments are mistaking my argument that ethically I can't get on board with saying you can do whatever you want to your body once you decide to carry a pregnancy to term with the argument that women should go to prison for making ill-advised choices while pregnant. #pregnancy
@sheenapunk: Hands down the worst possible thing you can do for yourself in the criminal justice system is fail to show respect to the court. Gotta keep your PO on your side. #pregnancy
For me, this is a discussion that is only complicated because of the way this conversation has evolved. A woman is pregnant, plans on giving birth and is using. I couldn't imagine that anyone would find that acceptable. People are just reluctant to say it because they think it might inflame the other side. #pregnancy
@Penny: using drugs while you're pregnant isn't "acceptable', but when we start talking about society choosing what women can do when they're pregnant we're on a scary path. #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/20/09
What you have to understand is that this woman and her situation represent your rights as a woman. It is not a question of morality or character; it is a question of constitutional rights. Specifically, YOUR constitutional rights. If the government is allowed into her uterus, who's to say that, given the right circumstances they will not be allowed in yours.
Not to compare the two but there is a reason prosecutors do not chose female jurors in statutory rape cases; we judge. We sit back and we judge a woman who "gets herself into" a situation we could not envision getting into ourselves and we punish her for it - even if it means sacrificing our constitutional rights. #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/20/09
p.s. You can get abortions when you're in jail ...and sometimes at the taxpayers expense even.
p.p.s. "....because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime..." Um, yes, it is. The prisons are full of non-pregnant drug addicts so this is just not true. #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/21/09
10/20/09
For example:
"Regina McKnight suffered a stillbirth, was charged with homicide by child abuse and was tried and convicted. Although Ms. McKnight had no criminal record, she was sentenced to twenty years imprisonment with eight years suspended. On appeal, the South Carolina State Supreme Court held that viable fetuses are persons under the state's homicide statute, effectively transforming a stillbirth from personal and family tragedy to "depraved heart" homicide. The decision permits conviction on any evidence that a pregnant woman engaged in activity "public[ly] know[n]" to be "potentially fatal" to a fetus. No one in this case believed that Ms. McKnight had any intention of harming the fetus or losing the pregnancy. Had Ms. McKnight sought to end her pregnancy by having an illegal third trimester abortion, her sentence would have been two years in jail. Experts working on her appeals conclude that her stillbirth was caused by an infection wholly unrelated to drug use."
The specifics of Lovill's individual case aside (would she have been jailed for a probation violation if she hadn't been pregnant? I think maybe not, given the ADA's quote above) , there is a trend toward jailing/prosecuting pregnant women by treating them as vessels for future children, especially if drug use is involved. #pregnancy
10/20/09
The implications of this case are far greater than whether or not this woman is fit to carry a child (which she is certainly not). #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
She had previously given birth to two children with severe birth defects who had to be cared for at the government's expense in mental health facilities. She was incarcerated while pregnant with the third.
It was a very complicated week for our class. I am pro-choice, and I agree that the legal system shouldn't penalize pregnant women....but something should be done. There has to be a better alternative than just letting her sniff all the glue she can afford to avoid infringing on her rights.
How about placing her in a mental health facility instead of prison? Wouldn't that be the best option for her and her potential children?
As for this American case. She violated her parole, this is true. But since when has anyone gotten clean in prison? This clearly isn't going to help anyone involved (be they fetus or born alive). #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
I don't consider my viewpoints extreme but I do have an interest in both constitutional law and women's rights and while your totally human, middle-of-the-road POV doesn't surprise me, it does make me a little sad.
Taxes? #pregnancy
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10/21/09
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If they sent her to a treatment program I wonder how it would work? Maybe well, maybe not. But the bottom line is, she violated her probation and for the sake of the child [I'm using child because she intends to keep it] it is best that shes there off the drugs and with health care. She can barely take care of herself if shes making these decisions, let the fetus shes choosing to turn into a child have a chance beyond her.
My fiance is a cop and I hear stories like this all the time, maybe this colors my response, but its frustrating as hell to keep seeing the cycle repeat itself when you offer help and they still choose the detrimental paths.
10/20/09
Oh boy. #pregnancy
10/20/09
When I was anorexic, I was hospitalized with a lady, Daniella, who was 8 months pregnant and massively bipolar. She had two children already which had been removed from her due to neglect/abuse (depending on whether she was manic or depressive at the time) and she was about to give birth. She chain smoked, she cursed out everyone around her, she was very nearly violent but not quite. She was paranoid (I was on my way to the bathroom while she was on her way to her room, both at the end of the same hallway, and she suddenly stopped and asked me if I was following her. She did however believe my reply of "all I want is to pee!")
Daniella was very ill but was not a danger to herself or others - except her kids. Because of this, the govt. decided to put in the psych ward for the last weeks of her pregnancy. She refused her meds and often had them forced on her when she became so wild that she could hurt herself or others. The nurses hated injecting her with antipsychotics and sedatives for the sake of the fetus, but had no choice. Daniella was adamant about keeping the baby but in addition to being unqualified to care for it, the only real reason she wanted to keep him or her (I left before she gave birth) was because others wanted to take him away. Her sister had custody of her other kids.
Towards the end of my hospitalization, she began to approach sanity. I think she even began to internalize that not only was her kid not gonna stay with her, but that it was probably for the best. That was so sad.
Being hospitalized for anorexia (a severe disorder to be sure, but not psychosis) taught me so much about mental illness and humanity in general. I was exposed to more raw emotion in those months than I had before or have since. It was an educational experience.
My point is, sometimes hospitalizing a pregnant mother for the good of the potential child is necessary. Before I knew Daniella I wouldn't have thought so, but now I know better. Is jailing a pregnant woman the same as hospitalizing? I don't know.
Just my 13 cents (it was a long post!!) #pregnancy
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10/20/09
I own my own business, am completely independent (no more momma money) - hell, I even volunteer and pay taxes, not to mention feed an entire feral cat colony.
Being in hospital was the worst thing I ever went through... and it saved my life. When I went in, 4 years ago, I was told that on my current track I had six months to live. Hospital was terrifying and horrible and I still have flashbacks (actual PTSD stuff) about it - but without it, I wouldn't be alive today. I went from a charity case - someone who couldn't hold down a job, was living on disability and money from my parents, someone who didn't expect and wasn't expected to make anything of themselves (let alone live for long) to a small business owner who, just yesterday met with a real estate attourney about the option of buying my first, own house.
Any anorexics (or otherwise sick) folks reading this: Hospital is scary. And awful. It sucks. And it saved my life.
Wow I'm spewing up a lot of emotional stuff today. Ah well - back to watching stargate! #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
And beyond that, if a we had easier access to birth control, pre- AND post-conception, perhaps we would have fewer women getting pregnant when they don't want to or know it's not a good time or able to abort (ideally unwanted) children that they know will be affected by a behavior they are not able to control at that time. #pregnancy
10/20/09
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10/20/09
Exactly I agree 100%. I don't see what people aren't getting with this. If you intend to get an abortion and your partying it up fine, but if you choose to go on with your pregnancy it then becomes a potential person with the potential for a whole host of problems. #pregnancy
10/20/09
I'm with you that a woman who chooses to keep a baby has an obligation to help that baby be born healthy. I'm just not sure what responsibility the state has in making sure she does. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
I know here in Orlando women have been kicked out of bars for entering while pregnant--not even trying to drink or smoke, just going INTO a bar. Women here have been refused alcohol sales. When I get closer to my due date my husband is going to have to pick up the liquor for the house parties even though I usually do because it's easier, just because I don't want to be humiliated like that. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
Ironically, some government officials are looking to do just that. #pregnancy
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The beauty of the constitution is that it is both strict and flexible in terms of interpretation. It lives, as far as I'm concerned. This, however, is not a matter of interpretation as her incarceration was a clear violation of the fourteenth amendment. In terms of the law, this is rather cut and dry.
If this woman were my best friend or sister I'd slap her into next week for being an idiot but I'd defend her rights. #pregnancy
10/21/09
Not trying to be bitchy, but man, she's dead-ass, all-around wrong and there should be some protection for the baby/fetus/potential human in question. #pregnancy
10/21/09
if anyone smokes in front of a pregnant woman, period, can they be charged with child endangerment?
no. but...if a woman smokes while pregnant...should we be able to put her in jail so she CAN'T smoke?
cigarettes are drugs. they are dangerous, addictive drugs that cause tons of problems with newborns. the fact that they are legal doesn't make them un-drugs. so...if we are ok with locking up/punishing/incarcerating a pregnant methhead....by extension, we are ok with incarcerating a pregnant woman who is 1. a smoker , 2. anorexic, 3. an alcoholic 4. drives without a seatbelt... #pregnancy
10/21/09
10/21/09
And her baby, almost two now, was born healthy and is in the care of her family.
I agree that "something needs to be done" but you don't enact change by depriving someone of their rights. #pregnancy
10/22/09
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10/20/09
The court always has the right to put someone who is violating the terms of their probation into jail or prison. When judges hear violation of probation cases, they weigh the circumstances of the violation and determine whether the violator should be incarcerated or have his or her probation extended or altered. In Lovill's case, I imagine her pregnancy was another factor to be weighed. It says at the beginning that she dropped positive several times over the course of her probation. At least in my criminal court experience, it is not unusual that she would have to serve time for that violation. Her pregnancy was probably just the icing on the cake, so to speak. #pregnancy
10/20/09
10/20/09
What the difficulty is that women are the sole "carriers" of babies. I'm sorry, men cannot become pregnant. I assure you: if they could (and I would love for it to happen!), and they harmed the fetus because they took drugs, we would have a case against them, too. Since women can, they're perceived as being unfairly punished. Well, perhaps it's unfair because biology made it so.
The only thing that worries me is that this can be used against the right to abort. Other than that, I have no real problem with this. #pregnancy
10/20/09
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And I think this is the most important line: "No, she said, because having illegal drugs in your body is not a crime — even for a pregnant woman." There are plenty of activities that are "bad" for pregnant women: being on drugs, drinking, smoking, lifting heavy objects. But none of these are illegal, and to use any of them as a reason to incarcerate a pregnant woman is unconscionable. Pro-choice means allowing a woman to make choices about her body AFTER pregnancy, too. #pregnancy
10/20/09
Agreed that prison is the absolute wrong place for her to be. #pregnancy
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should go to jail #pregnancy
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What's the point of giving drug tests if you're not actually going to revoke probation? #pregnancy
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