My view on sex didn't start to change until my 1st (and only other) relationship, where I experienced a lot of "non-rape," and felt like I had to stay with the douchenozzle forever as penance to God. I lost something (still not sure what exactly), and have never returned to the church. I'm 26, been living with my non-Christian fiance for 4 years, and wish we'd started dating in high school/college, as I would have married him before having sex. Sometimes I wish he was Christian. But then, sometimes I wish I was Christian too.
I love how the focus is on women marrying young, but it would okay for a 20y/o woman to marry a 32y/o guy. Are we supposed to believe that it's easy for the guy to abstain from sex until his 30s, or does virginity only matter for the women?
Dear god, no. The reason my first real relationship in my early 20s didn't pan out? Because we got together in my early 20s. We hadn't grow into ourselves yet. And even though we lived under the same roof for 4 years, in that 4 years, we starting figuring out for our own selves that we had different goals and dreams in life. And we grew apart, and it became apparent that this was not going to work out long-term, so we split and are still amicable. Lord knows that if we'd jumped into marriage and had babies like the evangelical churches say to do, we'd be two miserable folks and probably not giving the kids the full attention they need.
I freak out when I hear about people getting married crazy early, because they have no time to get away from their family, from their old hometown, from their old hang-ups and go out and find themselves. When one gets into a relationship that early, they a deep risk that I've seen come to fruition far too often where their own self-worth is tied up in direct relationships with one other person, and it creeps me fuck out.
But, it is the nature of fundamentalist churches to not want critical thought or self-awareness, they want you to be one with their message of "the Bible is the absolute and 100% true word of God Himself, and nothing in it is other than what it literally says". So if you gain some semblance of self-worth, you might just question the teachings of the church and they might lose more members, and that would be bad for their business.
@wednesdayam: A lot of people never get away from their families or hometown though-- I'm from an area of the country where a lot of people don't get college degrees, marry people they went to highschool with, and stay put for generations. I think that, like so many other things, there is some cultural relativism that comes into play here.
Take the Bible quiz!
1. Which of the ten commandments bans fornication?
2. Describe the shunning Mary endured because she got pregnant while engaged.
Answers:
1. Um, none of them.
2. Um, she didn't.
Wow. This isn't just grabbing the wrong end of the stick, this is missing the stick altogether and accidentally ramming your fist into the anus of an enraged lion.
My experience in and as an observer of evangelical communities has been not just that people have been encouraged to marry early in terms of years lived, but also in terms of amount of time dating. I can think of dozens of couples who married within six months of beginning a relationship and I don't feel like I'm getting anything wrong by saying that more often than not this was largely out of desire to have sex, not desire to be married. I also know quite a few of these couples who are or are in the process of getting divorced.
Okay, am I the only one who has noticed of late the use of "the Church" very vaguely to refer to Christians as such? I was always under the impression (as someone raised Protestant, and devoutly so, though now an atheist) that "the Church" meant the Roman Catholic church. Otherwise, I'd refer to "Christians" or the specific denomination in question.
@Laulau: I've noticed that as well, and it doesn't seem to really fit. Protestants come in many different denominations, while there is only one Roman Catholic Church. Why the need to throw all of the Protestants under the creepy umbrella of "the Church?" If I were say a Unitarian, I wouldn't want to be lumped into the Baptists, etc.
It seems like coopting the term to give credence to values espoused by only a small number of Protestants.
@haus_frau: Yeah, I'm actually not sure what it's about - just antoher handy moniker for Christians, rather than referring to them as such when writing? I wouldn't object to "the catholic [small "c"] church", as in the Nicene Creed, but I can be a bit finicky like that. As you said, "THE church" suggests a sense of unity that simply does not exist across denominations.
I'm creeped out that this is stated so matter-of-factly in a mainstream Christian publication. I was married way too young at 18, but my husband and I were wild teenagers and had previous relationships by the time we came together. Twelve years later, mostly happy but with major bumps along the way, we look back and wonder what the hell we were thinking to get married that young. We joined a church because that's what you do when you start a family in the suburbs in the south. We became disturbed by the pattern of the youth group pairing up and marrying once they graduated from homeschool. Then the girls were pregnant within the first few years. These girls had no perspective on the world other than their church, but their world-view was so limited that they didn't even know it. Even more concerning was the youth pastor who was 28 and unmarried. He was eventually drove away when he began openly flirting and possibly dating the girls once they turned 18. That was the biggest problem that I saw with abstinence teaching and is hinted above. The never married men, despite their age, are relegated to dating women under 23 because otherwise they aren't virgins. We are now agnostic, and when my children want to start going to youth group with their friends, I will hand them a copy of "Quiverfull" by Kathryn Joyce.
Fascinating post, because literally 20 of my southern college friends-- all moderate evangelical christians-- are getting married this year. 90% of them waited until finishing college and procuring full time jobs before marrying, but they are still 23 - 25 ish.... all, from what they have reported to me, are waiting until they are married for sex.
While I do think that they all have very healthy/stable relationships and are not being UNwise in marrying their SO's, it has been indicated to me by a few of the girls that they would have preferred to delay the marriage until each were more financially stable, but that "my fiance didn't think he could wait another year to have sex."
I can't even imagine being ready to get married at 23, even though i am gainfully employed and have no debt. It's very strange, but it is different for each relationship I suppose. As a more liberal-leaning person of faith, I prefer to make sexual desire NOT a deciding factor in getting married. But don't tell my mom that.
I'm noticing a lot of people are mentioning "Why get married before you have your college degree?!" and while I am not at all dismissing the importance of education or developing a life of your own before tying yours to another persons, I think the whole "This step has to come before that step" is just as narrow a view to take as getting married super-young. It also assumes a level of privilege and/or interest that not everyone has.
@LaComtesse: Thank you for saying this. It's an important point. I think not doing everything in its 'correct' societal order can be a huge source of anxiety.
@LaComtesse: I think some of the concern might be that, without a college degree, it would be much more difficult to find employment in the event of marital disaster. If you're a divorced or widowed woman, with or without children, with only a high school diploma, your employment options are significantly more limited.
@wtfox?!: But you can get your degree after marriage. And, depending on what you plan to do, you may not need a degree. Want to be a hairdresser or work in a factory or construction or childcare? No degree required. Yes it limits your options, but so does a degree in, say, Musical Theater or Creative Writing. (And before people get uppity, I myself sport a degree in Creative Writing.)
@LaComtesse: As of next May, I too will be sporting said degree. You mean the world will not be my oyster? That I won't just be kicking back with a cold one, counting my foldin' money? Damn.
@LaComtesse: I've really never understood the argument that you must finish your education before you get married. Unless to some people getting married=having kids, and therefore you can't be a student because you have a kid to support. My fiance and I are both in grad school (I'm law, he's phd), and if we were to wait until we both finished our degrees, we'd have been dating nearly 10 years. It just seems like such an arbitrary thing to me. We'd both be poor students living apart, now we're poor students living together, and soon we'll be poor, married students living together.
And you raise a great point that many people don't need to decide to go to college right after high school, if ever. My only hesitation with that is that it often seems that if young couples get married before they go to college, it's often the wife's potential education that suffers.
I know a young couple who married just last week (they'll be college seniors in a few weeks), and I have wondered if they got married for exactly this reason. They are very religious and from conservative families, so I imagine premairtal sex would be a no-no.
One of my friends said to me "well, if they know that they want to be together for the rest of their lives, why not?". But if you know you want to be with someone for the rest of your life can't you wait until you get a diploma, a job and pay down some of your loans? I'm just imagining the freecreditreport.com ad where they have to live in her parents' basement because someone's credit was bad.
"Evangelical" is not the same thing as "fundamentalist," though the terms are often used interchangeably. Fundamentalists are the ones who believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. Evangelicals may or may not choose to do this. Evangelicals believe it is their responsibility to evangelize (i.e. tell people about their beliefs). Many evangelicals are fundamentalists, but by no means all. The reverse is also true, though I think, by and large, fundies are pretty likely to be evangelical in their approach.
Another way to look at it is that fundamentalism is about the believer's relationship to the sacred text, and evangelism is about the believer's relationship with the world outside their faith community.
What gets my goat is that all Christians end up tainted by the really outspoken ultra-right-wingers and nutjobs. There are plenty of Christian churches actively working toward peace, social justice, hunger relief, and women's and LGBT rights. But they rarely make the news.
@cynicalbeatle: This church near me took out a half page ad in the paper way back when CA ruled in favor of gay marriage, to congratulate the LGBT community, saying that true Christianity accepts everyone. I'm not Christian, but I thought that was mighty decent of them.
I'm 21. My lovely lovely lovely evangelical Christian friend is 8 weeks away from having her 1st baby. Had she stayed at school, there would have been no doubt she would have been dux (our equivalent to valedictorian), and gone to Uni and done something amazing in Physics and Maths. Now she is an accounting technician, who sits in the back room and counts numbers. It's her decision, but WHY WOULD YOU WASTE ALL THAT TALENT SO YOU CAN SIT AT HOME, STITCH YOUR HUSBANDS SHIRTS AND HAVE BABIES! HAVE BABIES LATER! PLENTY OF TIME FOR BABIES!
I almost want to shake her, say 'YOU SHOULD HAVE JUST HAD THE PREMARITAL SEX AND GOT MARRIED LATER'. She's not stupid, she would have used protection, so there is no reason to get married just to have sex!
In the words of Nike, Just Do It.
@Cesybabe or Nirvanah Crane: While I see your point, choice goes all different ways. Is she happy? This is what's important. I'm sure if I worked hard at it I could have a super high-power PR job. I do not WANT a career. I want a job I love but I never want my professional life to be on par with my personal life. I would rather have children than a Business Woman of the Year award. That's just me. Maybe your friend is the same way.
@LaComtesse: So very true, and I accept that. However in this day and age, I don't see why it had to be one or another as well. Why not both? Why not wait a year or two, try some new things, move out of your hometown, then if it's not what you want, come back. I can't help thinking in the future she may regret not having done something for herself because she followed the expected path.
@Cesybabe or Nirvanah Crane: I feel the same way. Again, it's not what I'd have done (I don't think I ever would have gotten married without doing some other things first) but, so long as she (the universal she) had the agency to make her own decisions, we (as a society) have to accept it.
@LaComtesse: Exactly. I think the important thing in the end is that marriage (or the lack thereof) is willing and that people are happy. If she's happy with her job and being a mother, what is it to the rest of us if she "wasted her talents"?
@Cesybabe or Nirvanah Crane: Some people "waste" their talent because they'd rather be happy than be miserable. Society doesn't have a right to anyone's life, regardless of how skilled they are.
Sometimes I wonder if people like this guy don't want to let go of the abstinence-only thing because it allows them more control over women. You see, women have to be the better person in a lot of these church-based relationships. They have to keep their hormonal man in check, keep him from "lusting" too much before marriage. But they should submit to their husband after the wedding, it seems.
A lot of Christian people will see through the crap and have premarital sex anyway. Some, like me, will become scared of their own sexuality, because the church sent the message, implicit or otherwise, that I should be until I was properly wed.
@lalaland13: THANK YOU. I blame my upbringing through the teachings of Focus on the Family for my fear of sexuality and complete fail in the realm of dating and romance. To be fair to my parents, though, I don't think they realized the messages I was being fed.
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I freak out when I hear about people getting married crazy early, because they have no time to get away from their family, from their old hometown, from their old hang-ups and go out and find themselves. When one gets into a relationship that early, they a deep risk that I've seen come to fruition far too often where their own self-worth is tied up in direct relationships with one other person, and it creeps me fuck out.
But, it is the nature of fundamentalist churches to not want critical thought or self-awareness, they want you to be one with their message of "the Bible is the absolute and 100% true word of God Himself, and nothing in it is other than what it literally says". So if you gain some semblance of self-worth, you might just question the teachings of the church and they might lose more members, and that would be bad for their business.
08/10/09
08/10/09
1. Which of the ten commandments bans fornication?
2. Describe the shunning Mary endured because she got pregnant while engaged.
Answers:
1. Um, none of them.
2. Um, she didn't.
08/10/09
1. There are many rules/sins outlined in the bible apart from the 10 commandments.
2. Shame isn't a part of real Christianity.
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It seems like coopting the term to give credence to values espoused by only a small number of Protestants.
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08/09/09
While I do think that they all have very healthy/stable relationships and are not being UNwise in marrying their SO's, it has been indicated to me by a few of the girls that they would have preferred to delay the marriage until each were more financially stable, but that "my fiance didn't think he could wait another year to have sex."
I can't even imagine being ready to get married at 23, even though i am gainfully employed and have no debt. It's very strange, but it is different for each relationship I suppose. As a more liberal-leaning person of faith, I prefer to make sexual desire NOT a deciding factor in getting married. But don't tell my mom that.
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08/10/09
And you raise a great point that many people don't need to decide to go to college right after high school, if ever. My only hesitation with that is that it often seems that if young couples get married before they go to college, it's often the wife's potential education that suffers.
08/09/09
One of my friends said to me "well, if they know that they want to be together for the rest of their lives, why not?". But if you know you want to be with someone for the rest of your life can't you wait until you get a diploma, a job and pay down some of your loans? I'm just imagining the freecreditreport.com ad where they have to live in her parents' basement because someone's credit was bad.
08/09/09
08/09/09
Another way to look at it is that fundamentalism is about the believer's relationship to the sacred text, and evangelism is about the believer's relationship with the world outside their faith community.
What gets my goat is that all Christians end up tainted by the really outspoken ultra-right-wingers and nutjobs. There are plenty of Christian churches actively working toward peace, social justice, hunger relief, and women's and LGBT rights. But they rarely make the news.
08/09/09
08/09/09
I almost want to shake her, say 'YOU SHOULD HAVE JUST HAD THE PREMARITAL SEX AND GOT MARRIED LATER'. She's not stupid, she would have used protection, so there is no reason to get married just to have sex!
In the words of Nike, Just Do It.
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A lot of Christian people will see through the crap and have premarital sex anyway. Some, like me, will become scared of their own sexuality, because the church sent the message, implicit or otherwise, that I should be until I was properly wed.
08/09/09