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New York, 4:55 AM
Sat Dec 12
67 posts in the last 24 hours

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    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    In reply to Coat Hangers, Court Cases, And RU-486: Abortion Rights Around The World
    Errr...I think that the whole coat hanger thing is a little stupid/pointless. Actually, it seems a bit PETA-esque, honestly, as in, more likely to earn derision than support from the people that you're appealing to. Sure, send a protest letter (which they did), but I don't think the coat hangers will make a stitch of difference in the dialogue.

    Frankly, from my experience in talking to many, many anti-choicers, you're not going to change someone's mind about the matter by referring to the health consequences that women are subject to by having "back alley" abortions. They don't really care if women are hurt, and the fact that women are hurt, routinely, by these kinds of practices, won't be enough to change their minds.

    Sorry if that sounds woefully pessimistic, but you could send them an Ikea's ransom in hangers, and I don't think it would influence anti-choicers one way or another.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of Truely-marvelous Truely-marvelous
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: Yes, but it doesn't hurt to try.
    Most anti-choicers are basing their opinion on things I don't believe in, and they will never convince me otherwise, no matter what they do...
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator promoted this comment Truely-marvelous was starred Truely-marvelous was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: But as I understand it, these weren't to anti-choicers, it was to folks that previously supported reproductive rights, but voted for what Stupak proposed. It's sending them a message that we've taken notice and they can't be fair weather friends.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of LutherNipperkin LutherNipperkin
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: I'm sad to think that you might be right, but I have to agree when I think about the other side using similar tactics. I'm not influenced when anti-choicers wave pictures of dead babies in my face or try to feed me fetus birthday cupcakes. If anything it reminds me of an annoying object lesson taught to children at church. It's meant to be emotionally manipulative. It just comes down to which symbols more strongly represent what they believe deep down.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator promoted this comment LutherNipperkin was starred LutherNipperkin was unstarred
    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    @Truely-marvelous: Certainly, it doesn't hurt to try. But the hanger thing, to me, comes off as a wacky stunt (which is why I mentioned PETA), and wacky stunts in the long run are more likely to turn off people who don't share the same ideology as you than to convince them.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of nakadika_shiksa nakadika_shiksa
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: When we hung wire hangers on my campus, it was not to convince anti-choicers (I sort of see that as often pointless as well) and more to get people who identify as pro-choice but never really saw their rights as in danger talking. It worked.

    Similarly, sending wire hangers to pro-choice Reps who voted for Stupak was a visual reminder of something they've already said they identified with. I'm not saying it was effective (maybe for the intern who opened the mail?), but I don't really think anti-choicers were in anyway the target.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair promoted this comment nakadika_shiksa was starred nakadika_shiksa was unstarred
    Image of J.D.Regent J.D.Regent
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: what DO you think will influence them then?
     Reply
    J.D.Regent was starred J.D.Regent was unstarred
    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    @WashingMyHair: Sure, but even if they initially supported reproductive rights, something swayed them to the other side, and I'm just not convinced that this kind of stunt will make much of a difference in changing their minds. It's pessimistic, yes, but I don't think that they'll be waking up at night imagining the wire hangers. Certainly some sort of action should be taken, but I think that action should come in another form.

    Honestly, I think that "wire hanger" imagery is as efficacious for the pro-choice side as "dangling fetus" imagery is for the anti-choice side.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: Again, they aren't necessarily being sent to "anti-choicers", but folks that previously showed support of the pro-choice movement. Big difference, thus shaming them compared to true anti-choicers can have some impact.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    @J.D.Regent: I'm probably coming off as harsher than I should be, because I honestly don't want to knock their efforts. They're fighting the good fight. I just don't think this is a good tactic.

    I'm just wondering if this kind of thing might have an adverse effect. Would it make people who read the protest letter that accompanied the hangers take the letter less seriously? I think that is actually a possibility.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: I understand that you don't like the wire hanger thing. Please, if you paid close attention while it was going on, many thought that Stupak didn't really affect anyone because they falsely thought it was along the lines of the original Hyde amendment. They were wrong. They also took their constituents for granted and thought that they wouldn't take notice.

    These aren't necessarily people that are now anti-choice, they just thought that trading a little bit of our rights away wouldn't be a big deal.....That's a big difference from trying to shame anti-choicers. Whether it's hangers or letters, who cares. The fact that a city is letting them know that they're lazy, uninformed vote was noticed is a very strong message.
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/10/09 10:34 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: If reading a protest letter with a hanger makes them change their minds from pro to anti-choice,well they never really were supporters in the first place then. Again, these were people that otherwise called themselves pro-choice supporters.

    If this really did make them change their mind to be completely against choice, them maybe it's a good thing. Pro-choice voters can vote for a better candidate in the next election.
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/10/09 10:33 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of J.D.Regent J.D.Regent
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: I don't think you sound harsh, I am just wondering what you think would be more effective. Are you saying that reasoned discourse will work? First of all, it's hard to fit on a protest sign, and second of all, maybe I'm the harsh one, but since it's the anti-choice side determined to make the whole thing about murder, let's speak their language, know what I am saying?
     Reply
    J.D.Regent was starred J.D.Regent was unstarred
    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    @WashingMyHair: I realize that. When I said "other side", I meant that they were swayed to change their opinion in some way. All I'm saying is that I don't think that this particular tactic will shame them in any way that a strongly worded protest letter wouldn't. And I realize that a letter was also sent. But I think that a good letter, standing alone, would garner more serious reflection than a bunch of coat hangers. Just my opinion, though.
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: I understand your view, but maybe the announcement of the coat hangers was also used as a tactic to send a message to the community. Many pro-choice voters don't pay attention to the detailed voting records of their reps, so when something like this gets attention, the constituents may start to take notice of all of the commotion and say "hey, I didn't know my rep voted that way. That's wrong."
    Possibly.
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of IndignationCoordinator IndignationCoordinator
    12/10/09

    @WashingMyHair: Well, I do admire the effort. I agree with you re: the election question. My knee-jerk reaction was just that this was a bit "stunty", and I questioned how much it would actually get through to the people involved.

    @J.D.Regent: And I'm not saying that reasoned discourse will work, either. Honestly, I don't know what would work. But I don't agree with speaking the language of the anti-choice side, because it pretty much comes off as buffoonish for those who don't agree, doesn't it?
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator was starred IndignationCoordinator was unstarred
    Image of cantankasaurus rex cantankasaurus rex
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: i think the purpose of the clothes hanger is as a highly symbolic image that may resonate with the members of congress they are aimed at more than it does to us. the age of many congresspeople puts them in the generation that remembers a time before legal abortion. there's a good chance that they knew someone or of someone that had a back-alley abortion or that saw the consequences of one. its a stark visual reminder. the gut impact of a clothes hanger simply doesn't have the same impact on people who were born/came of age (myself included) post-roe
     Reply
    WashingMyHair promoted this comment cantankasaurus rex was starred cantankasaurus rex was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @cantankasaurus rex: good point
     Reply
    WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of baseballchica03 baseballchica03
    12/10/09

    @J.D.Regent: But we're not talking about protest signs, we're talking about something sent in the mail to elected representatives.

    As the constituent outreach director in the district office of an elected official, I can tell you that we get odd stuff in the mail all the time. Sometimes it's wacky, like the coat hangers. I have an entire "wacky" bin in my office filled with newspaper clippings scribbled on in red sharpie and inappropriate messages, photos, etc. We get things, too, that are designed to tug on your heartstrings, like crayon-scrawled letters and drawings from elementary school students asking us not to cut their funding. I also have an entire file cabinet and several electronic files absolutely filled with petitions and word-for-word form letters on various different issues. But these are not the most effective in helping us form our opinion. The first category gets laughed at and mostly forgotten until we're telling crazy constituent stories at the holiday party. (In my last office, we had a "wall of shame" that we would post things like that on.) The second category makes me tear up a little - cute stuff from politically active kids (even ones forced to be so by their teachers) always gets to me. The last category is the most useless of them all. Yeah, it helps us keep tabs on how many people care about an issue, but it doesn't show any thought or effort to slap your name onto a pre-written e-mail or pre-printed form letter/postcard. There are diminishing returns to that, too. The more inundated we get with the same. exact. thing, the more annoyed we are with the group sponsoring it. YEAH, WE GET THE MESSAGE ALREADY. STOP KILLING TREES AND MAKING ME WASTE MY TIME (THAT COULD BE BETTER SPENT ACTUALLY SERVING THE PUBLIC) FILING THINGS.

    The absolute most effective thing you can do to help change Bossman's mind or get us to support your issue if we don't already is to send a heartfelt letter, logically lay out your points, explain how it affects you, your family, your community, in a reasoned and polite way. No form letters, no copying and pasting talking points. Write what YOU believe, why it matters to YOU. Bring the message home, away from abstract concepts or big numbers that don't mean anything. Stay away from inflammatory language or imagery. Just be polite and tell your story, and I promise that it will pack a much larger punch than an envelope full of coat hangers.

    (Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on so much of a rant. I feel like I need to offer a class on how to best lobby elected representatives so as to not waste your time and theirs.)
     Reply
    IndignationCoordinator promoted this comment Edited by baseballchica03 at 12/10/09 10:57 AM baseballchica03 was starred baseballchica03 was unstarred
    Image of highjump highjump
    12/10/09

    @WashingMyHair: Yes, I believe this is an important distinction.
     Reply
    highjump was starred highjump was unstarred
    Image of cate3710 cate3710
    12/10/09

    @IndignationCoordinator: But they were sent to "Representatives who had previously supported reproductive rights but voted for Stupak", not straight-up anti-choicers. I think that makes a difference. The hanger acts as a more visceral reminder of what Stupak could lead to for many women.
     Reply
    cate3710 was starred cate3710 was unstarred
    Image of cate3710 cate3710
    12/10/09

    @baseballchica03: Hmm, I had wondered about the effectiveness of the form letter/petition type things. I understand the frustration at having to file/sort through numerous copies of the same thing, but it's sad that you get annoyed with the group sponsoring it. Yeah, a heartfelt letter would be better, but at least people are doing something and making sure you know people care about an issue.
     Reply
    cate3710 was starred cate3710 was unstarred
    Image of J.D.Regent J.D.Regent
    12/10/09

    @baseballchica03: I hear you. I think the hanger is a symbol for an argument that likely representatives have heard before and know -- abortion will happen, legal or not, and if illegal will claim not only the lives of fetuses but also their mothers. I guess I question the writing of heart felt letters to elected reps (which I do all the time) because how is it possible they haven't heard these basic arguments before? The hanger is meant to make people recall an argument they already know.
     Reply
    J.D.Regent was starred J.D.Regent was unstarred
    Image of baseballchica03 baseballchica03
    12/10/09

    @cate3710: Our annoyance generally comes when we keep getting letters and petitions from a group or organization AFTER we've already responded to them. One recent example of this stands out in my mind. We got literally over a hundred faxes from this one medical group in a single day, then dozens more of letters and e-mails. We sent a paper letter in response, but the deluge continued, tying up our fax line for the better part of a week. Bossman actually called the president of the organization personally and said, "We hear you and we're on your side. Please stop, though, because you're killing my staff." It slowed down, but it has continued. That sort of thing, where we respond and respond and respond but they keep at it, is very common and much more likely to foster resentment than good will!
     Reply
    baseballchica03 was starred baseballchica03 was unstarred
    Image of WashingMyHair WashingMyHair
    12/10/09

    @baseballchica03: Reading this makes me respect the office of my elected officials even less. Many people like me do form letters because I'm often not able to fully articulate what I feel, or I simply don't have time. Belittling their form of communication, no matter how poorly you think it'll work really reflects just as poorly on the office.
     Reply
    Edited by WashingMyHair at 12/10/09 11:54 AM WashingMyHair was starred WashingMyHair was unstarred
    Image of cate3710 cate3710
    12/10/09

    @baseballchica03: I wonder how much of that is the fault of the organization itself, though. If they send out an email or post something on Facebook or Twitter, it may take some time for people to send an email/fax/call, and they may very well do it after you've responded to the organization.
     Reply
    cate3710 was starred cate3710 was unstarred
    Image of baseballchica03 baseballchica03
    12/10/09

    @WashingMyHair: Honestly, we do track issues on how frequently we are contacted. We do log everything. But a brief e-mail that says, "Please support X issue. It is very important to me and to my family. Please protect our rights." is going to go a lot farther than the same two-page e-mail that I've read eighty-seven times before with facts and figures and legal arguments. With the form e-mails, we don't know how much someone really, truly supports the issue or how much of it is that it's the "issue of the moment" that came across their inbox so they clicked a button.

    Sometimes we'll do follow up, sending updates to everyone who has ever contacted us about X issue. Later, we'll get calls, "Why did you send me this? Take me off your list! Why are you spamming me?" They didn't even remember that they contacted us about the issue in the first place. So when I spend the time and effort to log in the data, respond to someone, go back later to update them on what's happening with that issue, it's frustrating to come across this sort of thing. Even briefer e-mails that come from the heart let us staffers know that our efforts are worth it, that you really do care. It's not about "belittling" constituents (although, I'm not going to lie when I tell you the note addressed "Dear Pompus Puss" didn't get laughed at over and over), it's about trying to prioritize how to make best use of very limited time and resources.
     Reply
    baseballchica03 was starred baseballchica03 was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/10/09

    In reply to Coat Hangers, Court Cases, And RU-486: Abortion Rights Around The World
    I can't even fathom the impact chemotherapy would have on a fetus. Is a woman really expected to choose between life saving treatment and causing severe birth defects?
     Reply
    Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of Alys Brangwin has a huge talent Alys Brangwin has a huge talent
    12/10/09

    @Lymed: Have you ever heard of Angela Carder? Scary scary shit happened to her while pregnant and dying of cancer.

    [en.wikipedia.org]
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was starred Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was unstarred
    Image of wtfox?! wtfox?!
    12/10/09

    @Alys Brangwin has a huge talent: Jesus H. Fucking Christ. I am agog. They actually did this to a woman?

    (I know they did, I just can't believe it.)
     Reply
    wtfox?! was starred wtfox?! was unstarred
    Image of Alys Brangwin has a huge talent Alys Brangwin has a huge talent
    12/10/09

    @wtfox?!: Yes, it is horrifying. This is one of the reason I'm always wary of getting behind a "viability" argument.
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was starred Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was unstarred
    Image of wishingflower wishingflower
    12/10/09

    @Alys Brangwin has a huge talent: Absolutely horrifying. I take a chemotherapy drug for my arthritis, and the list of horrendous birth defects is quite long. I have personal beliefs about when human life begins, but have discussed with my husband the fact that I would terminate a pregnancy because the fetus would most likely be missing organs and other body parts.
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin has a huge talent promoted this comment wishingflower was starred wishingflower was unstarred
    Image of highjump highjump
    12/10/09

    @Lymed: THIS is how the Catholic Church would like you to deal with an abortion/medical issue dilemma: [en.wikipedia.org]

    In 2004 they cannonized a woman who discovered, when she was 2 months pregnant with her 4th child, that she had a fibroma on her uterus. She declined an abortion, a hysterectomy (which would have been in line with church teaching), and died of sepsis. This woman was a doctor.
     Reply
    highjump was starred highjump was unstarred
    Image of Lymed Lymed
    12/10/09

    @highjump: It amazes me because this is the complete opposite of what I was taught as a Jew. I was taught that if you have to choose between saving the mother or fetus, you save the mother because the mother is already experiencing life.
     Reply
    Edited by Lymed at 12/10/09 11:37 AM Lymed was starred Lymed was unstarred
    Image of highjump highjump
    12/10/09

    @Lymed: I know, it boggles my mind. This woman is already was experiencing life, already had 3 kids to take care of, and was a doctor in an industrialized country so she knew the medical risks she was facing and the possible options. The Catholic church prioritized her baby-factory capabilities even over her responsibilities as a mother. This shows you how genuine the Catholic church's caveat of 'when the mother's life is at stake' really is. Suuuure you can have your hysterectomy, but what would a saint do?
     Reply
    highjump was starred highjump was unstarred
    Image of sportz.star sportz.star
    12/10/09

    In reply to Coat Hangers, Court Cases, And RU-486: Abortion Rights Around The World
    Watch Stupak et al use Ireland as evidence of what should be done here, ignoring the fact that the Irish government position stems from the heavy infusion of religion into government policy, something we try to avoid in the US. (We even wrote it down in our Constitution and everything!)
     Reply
    sportz.star was starred sportz.star was unstarred
    Image of hollygirl hollygirl
    12/10/09

    In reply to Coat Hangers, Court Cases, And RU-486: Abortion Rights Around The World
    A good friend of mine is trying the Irish case, she's a lawyer for a reproductive rights group here in the States. She's 8 months pregnant. We are so proud of you! Not saying her name, as her safety is always at risk...
     Reply
    hollygirl was starred hollygirl was unstarred
    Image of Triana Orpheus Triana Orpheus
    12/10/09

    @hollygirl: Hooray for women and men like your friend!
     Reply
    Triana Orpheus was starred Triana Orpheus was unstarred
    Image of w33kdays w33kdays
    12/10/09

    @hollygirl: Send her our luck and admiration. I hope to be doing the same thing one day.
     Reply
    hollygirl promoted this comment w33kdays was starred w33kdays was unstarred
    Image of hollygirl hollygirl
    12/10/09

    @w33kdays: Glad to hear there are still willing volunteers...!
     Reply
    hollygirl was starred hollygirl was unstarred
    Image of queenjulie queenjulie
    12/10/09

    @hollygirl: Can I ask if she has any feelings about how her own pregnancy may affect the case? I mean, does she think it might influence how the court perceives her? I'm curious.

    Also, please give her hugs for all of us!
     Reply
    hollygirl promoted this comment queenjulie was starred queenjulie was unstarred
    Image of hollygirl hollygirl
    12/10/09

    @queenjulie: I think she feels that it a kind of in-your-face reproof to people who think pro-choicers are femi-nazi bonerkillers, ie it can't hurt the case... She was also nervous they wouldn't have a robe big enough!
     Reply
    hollygirl was starred hollygirl was unstarred
    Image of KATE! KATE!
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    I didn't see anything objectionable in that video at all. Am I missing something?

    Dr. P seemed very nice; I don't think I could have had that sort of patience with a grown-ass pregnant woman who was asking what a fetus/embryo was (but of course, im seeing this from the perspective where i know she is trying to ensnare him into using the "b" word). he could be my abortionist any day.
     Reply
    KATE! was starred KATE! was unstarred
    Image of limber limber
    12/10/09

    @KATE!: For anyone not already on their side, I think the video's ineffective. It shows very patient, reasonable clinic staff talking to a woman who appears to be... uh, slow.

    He seems really nice, though I'll admit I wince every time I watch one of these and realize the doctor's in his 60s. I'm officially worried about there being no young doctors who will provide abortions.
     Reply
    limber was starred limber was unstarred
    Image of kung fu lola kung fu lola
    12/10/09

    @limber: You can go here or here to see what abortion providers of the present and future are up to. I always find it heartening.
     Reply
    KATE! promoted this comment kung fu lola was starred kung fu lola was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    You know what the second worst thing about this is? I always thought Lila and Rose were pretty names and I wanted to give them to future cats. She ruined TWO names I liked!
     Reply
    Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole was starred Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole was unstarred
    Image of bluewine bluewine
    12/09/09

    @Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole: But kitty Rose and Lila would counteract this moron who is ruining the lovely names, and would therefore help make them OK again. Because all cats are clearly pro-choice.
     Reply
    bluewine was starred bluewine was unstarred
    Image of winner winner
    12/09/09

    @Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole: What about Lilabortion, slutbag?
     Reply
    winner was starred winner was unstarred
    Image of Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole
    12/09/09

    @winner: Lilabortion and Rosbabykiller? These are long names for kittens.
     Reply
    Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole was starred Hana Maru, used up old slutbag on the pole was unstarred
    Image of Perhaps Not Perhaps Not
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    Further evidence that Planned Parenthood is not actually paying anyone an exorbitant sum -
    [www.guidestar.org]

    Granted, the CEO of the national version makes $385K a year, COO makes about $249K, and CFO makes about $277K, but that's pretty much standard operating procedure for an org the size of PP.

    Also struck me as odd: Planned Parenthood nonprofits are incorporated as dozens of different organizations. Anyone know why? I'm assuming the name is trademarked, so they can't be operating independently of one another.
     Reply
    Perhaps Not was starred Perhaps Not was unstarred
    Image of BlackSheepSayMoo BlackSheepSayMoo
    12/09/09

    @Perhaps Not: There are 93 Planned Parenthood affiliates. They report to the national organization, but they are operated independently.
     Reply
    Perhaps Not promoted this comment BlackSheepSayMoo was starred BlackSheepSayMoo was unstarred
    Image of Alexandra Bonomo Alexandra Bonomo
    12/09/09

    @Perhaps Not: Part of it is that Planned Parenthood has different position. On the one hand it is a health provider and it is a non profit. It is also a political organization and frequently engages in lawsuits on behalf of reproductive health care. The political action parts are legally not allowed to be funded from the same source as the health care providing parts and vice -versa.
     Reply
    Perhaps Not promoted this comment Alexandra Bonomo was starred Alexandra Bonomo was unstarred
    Image of Alexandra Bonomo Alexandra Bonomo
    12/09/09

    @Perhaps Not: Non-profits are not allowed to use their funds for political causes. So the political action part has to be a different organization.
     Reply
    Perhaps Not promoted this comment Alexandra Bonomo was starred Alexandra Bonomo was unstarred
    Image of lovelyleela lovelyleela
    12/09/09

    @Alexandra Bonomo: Having worked at a PP Center for a while, I can say that we were absolutely not allowed to advocate politically. We had a legislative "sister" organization that was not a 501(c)3 that did that stuff. It was "PP Affiliates of Michigan", I think. A "sister" in spirit but totally separate.
     Reply
    Perhaps Not promoted this comment lovelyleela was starred lovelyleela was unstarred
    Image of pesematology pesematology
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    No one goes into OB/GYN for the money, period (no pun intended). The malpractice insurance is through the roof.
     Reply
    pesematology was starred pesematology was unstarred
    Image of maude_flanders maude_flanders
    12/09/09

    @pesematology: And the costs of security, b/c people feel entitled to fucking threaten patients and doctors...

    Rage. Rage, rage, rage....despair.
     Reply
    maude_flanders was starred maude_flanders was unstarred
    Image of pesematology pesematology
    12/09/09

    @maude_flanders: Well I was talking about OBGYN in general. There's a whole laundry list if we're talking about abortion providers specifically.
     Reply
    pesematology was starred pesematology was unstarred
    Image of maude_flanders maude_flanders
    12/09/09

    @pesematology: I know---still haven't forgotten Bush's comment about malpractice suits preventing the good family doctor from "'practicing their love" (I mock, but deep down, I bet I could've said something equally awkward).

    My point is....I hate these people. I hate them when they terrorize patients (I might be coming for a referral, I might need an abortion, I might need B.C., I might have just been raped. Don't care--FUCK OFF, AND GET YOUR BLOODY FETUS OUT OF MY FACE, ASSHOLE), I hate their power in Congress (be they bishops or...hell, it's mainly religious groups trying to force dogma into law, isn't it), I hate the likes of Scott Roeder, I hate when people shrug it off.

    I hate that they portray this as a "lucrative" job.

    I think, I must be insane. Maybe I'm a fool--there must be a reason no one else but women written off as "feminazis" or "special interest groups" (at BEST) feels disturbed when doctors providing medical services (including vital services OTHER than abortion....a relative used the term "abortion industry" with me the other day and I gave a speech bordering on a rant explaining why that term is bullshit) and BIRTH CONTROL, for God's sake, go to work every day worried that they'll be blown up in their offices, or targeted at home.

    They talk about these doctors as fat-cat profiteers of death....then they vote for Bush, and, by default, all the friends who will get sweetheart contracts, every company who benefits when idiot voters and indifferent, arrogant government leaders treat war as folly.

    All that religion goes out the window when it comes time to fund social services for all those unwanted kids...

    It is a fucking crime.

    I am terrified of these people because their insanity is legitimized....everywhere. They've already won of the war of words--"pro-life" versus "pro-abortion." Jesus.
     Reply
    maude_flanders was starred maude_flanders was unstarred
    Image of curiousgeorgiana curiousgeorgiana
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    The same people shouting that abortion is a money making industry are absolutely silent on the fucking gold mine that is our war industry and military complex (I'm looking at you Haliburton/ KBR). If you're anti-choice but pro-war you can go jump in the nearest lake.
     Reply
    curiousgeorgiana was starred curiousgeorgiana was unstarred
    Image of phantom lady phantom lady
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    You're a foul one, Lila Rose.
    You're a nasty, wasty skunk.
    Your heart is full of unwashed socks
    Your soul is full of gunk.
    Lila Rose.

    The three words that best describe you,
    are, and I quote: "Stink. Stank. Stunk."

    You're a rotter, Ms Malkin.
    You're the queen of sinful sots.
    Your heart's a dead tomato splot
    With moldy purple spots,
    Ms Malkin.

    Your soul is an apalling dump heap overflowing
    with the most disgraceful assortment of deplorable
    rubbish imaginable,
    Mangled up in tangled up knots.
     Reply
    phantom lady was starred phantom lady was unstarred
    Image of Alys Brangwin has a huge talent Alys Brangwin has a huge talent
    12/09/09

    @phantom lady: Lila Rose
    It's time again, Rose
    To tell the truth from the lies
    Lila Rose
    It's time again, Rose
    About a thousand falsehoods...why?

    So here is my counter-song
    Not fancy or fine
    Lila Rose,
    Get the facts for next time
     Reply
    Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was starred Alys Brangwin has a huge talent was unstarred
    Image of o-line o-line
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    It's just malfeasance for malfeasance's sake.
     Reply
    o-line was starred o-line was unstarred
    Image of Jack_Burton Jack_Burton
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    I can't believe I just heard the word "lucrative" associated with abortion and Planned Parenthood.

    If there were a free-market incentive for abortion, you'd be able to get one at Starbucks, using a coupon.

    The only thing lucrative about abortion is the staggering medical malpractice insurance extorted from doctors in order to finance shitty investments in speculative financial products of commoditized debt.

    And they want to shoot doctors?
     Reply
    Jack_Burton was starred Jack_Burton was unstarred
    Image of huls huls
    12/09/09

    @Jack_Burton: Correction: They DO shoot doctors.

    Also do you have any links or anything to google about the medical malpractice issued to ob/gyns? I don't even think about malpractice when I go to the doctor and it sickens me that people extort those we need most.
     Reply
    Jack_Burton promoted this comment huls was starred huls was unstarred
    Image of Jack_Burton Jack_Burton
    12/09/09

    @huls: From what I understand from people I know in healthcare, doctors can expect to pay 25-60% of their after-tax income in insurance (this varies due to a number of factors). This is another reason the healthcare debate is complex: because in order to help reduce these premiums, some thought has to be given to tort reform and punitive damage caps (which democrat policymakers would traditionally rather ignore). But some common sense is in order here: Doctors and nurses are people, they make mistakes too - suing them for 10's of millions of dollars isn't going to bring back your loved-one.

    Mostly, I'm bitter because now that we've bailed out the insurance companies and banks, they have the audacity to go back to business as usual and are actually profiting, while so many smaller businesses are failing because the banks won't lend, and healthcare's going up. The insurance companies are certainly not all that's to be blamed for US healthcare woes, but they will have to give more value to the consumer under reform, and they don't like that at all.

    Here's a quick primer that references figures from a GAO (General Accounting Office) report: [www.policyalmanac.org]
     Reply
    Jack_Burton was starred Jack_Burton was unstarred
    Image of winner winner
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    Actually, the doctor is probably talking about fetal viability which the generally agreed to be about 28 weeks or 6.5 months.
     Reply
    winner was starred winner was unstarred
    Image of limber limber
    12/09/09

    @winner: Ding ding ding. Not hard to believe he'd simplify, when faced with a patient who claimed not to know what "embryo" and "fetus" were.
     Reply
    limber was starred limber was unstarred
    Image of HPgirl HPgirl
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    In my History of American Law class, we studied the history of abortion.

    And up until, like, the 1940's abortion wasn't a controversy. At all.

    In fact, a lot of religious grouops advocated legalizing abortion.

    Women passed tips to each other for how to do them - and they did not consider themselves to be pregnant until the quickening occurred. Basically, they had a missed period and wanted to fix that.

    Pretty much, we're no more backwards than we were when women didn't even have the right to vote. Progress!
     Reply
    cate3710 promoted this comment HPgirl was starred HPgirl was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    12/09/09

    @HPgirl: I'm pretty sure there were lots of anti-abortion campaigns during the late 19th century?
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of SunburnedCounsel SunburnedCounsel
    12/09/09

    @NellMood: My understanding of that (which is true) comes from reading "When Abortion Was a Crime", and suggested that the reasons for protesting were two-fold: it was often very dangerous, and was controlled by men who mostly wanted to erase the proof of infidelity or responsibility to wed and care for a woman and child. With the lack of legal protections and self-determination for women generally, it would make sense that women like Susan B. Anthony saw abortion as a patriarchal and dangerous way to keep men from having to live up to their "half" of the social contract. I don't know how much of the campaigns really focused on the women/mid-wife centric folk remedies.
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel was starred SunburnedCounsel was unstarred
    Image of NellMood NellMood
    12/09/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: Oh, thanks- I'll have to look for that book. It's really not a history I know much about, but I just read something tangential about abortion laws in another book I was reading about 19th C women in American cities.
     Reply
    NellMood was starred NellMood was unstarred
    Image of HPgirl HPgirl
    12/09/09

    @SunburnedCounsel: heh. That was our required reading. i kind of...only read the first chapter, just because I had a whole bloody paper to write.
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel promoted this comment HPgirl was starred HPgirl was unstarred
    Image of SunburnedCounsel SunburnedCounsel
    12/09/09

    @HPgirl: Read it over break, it's a fascinating read. On public transportation preferably. With the cover clearly visable. Enjoy the reactions around you. Rinse. Repeat.

    #tips
     Reply
    SunburnedCounsel was starred SunburnedCounsel was unstarred
    Image of sympathyforthebasementcat sympathyforthebasementcat
    12/09/09

    In reply to 3 Lies Anti-Choicers Tell About Planned Parenthood
    Okay, I think it's time to fight back. I can supply hours of footage of Republicans blatantly lying to further their political agenda. I can even show written statements by a prominent GOP politician and 2012 presidential frontrunner where she uses lies to support her agenda. And I've got some dirt on Sen. Vitter and Gov. Sandford that would blow your mind! We'll expose this to the public and everyone will be horrified!

    Oh wait, what's that you say? People are already aware of Fox News and Sarah Palin's Facebook profile and the countless affairs of GOP family values politicians? And no one gives a damn? I guess we'll just continue to let them target Planned Parenthood and ACORN, which clearly have more power in the world.
     Reply
    sympathyforthebasementcat was starred sympathyforthebasementcat was unstarred
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