Jezebel
Not that I ever smoked, but I guess I'd start, too, if my house looked like that. But there are disasters all over the place today, from Hillary's wonderful comments on race to the innocent guy we held in Gitmo who decided that the terrorists were right about us to the Myanmar cyclone pictured. It's disaster day on Crappy Hour, as Moe takes a much-needed break and I take a moment away from Glamocracy to talk Texas, Hillary, terrorists, fascists and God with the Washington Independent's Attackerman, Spencer Ackerman.
MEGAN: So, here we are again, Crappy-ing without Moe who is on vacation because you and me are suckers, possibly. I've heard vacations are nice, though. Through the grapevine.
SPENCER: speaking of vacations, i need to put out an open call to the Jezebels who live in Austin
on Saturday 5/17 i'll be there to see the reunion show of classic 90s Chicago punk band Los Crudos
and i have nowhere to stay and no one to hang out with now that my travel partner has abandoned me for such frivolities as "finding a place to live"
so if any of you guys live in austin and can put up with a respectful houseguest for like a day, holler at sackerman-at-washingtonindependent-dot-com
ok what is in the news
MEGAN: Oh, that sucks about having nowhere to stay! I'd offer up someone but the only person I for sure know in Texas is in Dallas and it's this douchebag lobbyist I used to date and I wouldn't subject anyone to his company. And if you were a girl, he'd mack on you something awful.
SPENCER: so, HRC not dropping out despite our awesome reconciliation-filled comment thread yesterday?
MEGAN: Nope, not in the slightest. She's in it to win it, even if she cannot, mathematically speaking, win it. I am counting down the minutes until she mentions again that "pledged" delegates are not actually obligated to vote for whom they were elected to vote for...
SPENCER: this baffles me
how the press treats her candidacy like it's still viable, even as they're pointing that out
MEGAN: Well, she is a candidate. And she could win if she did manage to convince like 80% of the supers to support her and continued to get at least decent margins in the primaries. It's just unlikely to happen.
Very, very, very unlikely.
SPENCER: i was watching the detroit-orlando last night and was thinking about what would happen if sportscasters started saying things like, "orlando is up by over 20 with 30 seconds left in the fourth, but detroit could still pull it out in the unlikely event of overtime"
MEGAN: Actually, that might make it worth it to me to watch a basketball game. I fucking hate sports commentary, but if it was actually Dadaist in its absurdity...
SPENCER: ok and so not to pick on HRC, because yesterday's CH comments were a beautiful miracle, but the longer this goes on the more it makes her say things like this:
"I have a much broader base to build a winning coalition on," she said in an interview with USA TODAY. As evidence, Clinton cited an Associated Press article "that found how Sen. Obama's support among working, hard-working Americans, white Americans, is weakening again, and how whites in both states who had not completed college were supporting me."
so she has a much broader base to build a coalition OF WHITE PEOPLE
MEGAN: Ah, yes, the coveted Caucasian-American demographic.
SPENCER: this is her i-should-stay-in-the-race argument
MEGAN: White people like her!
SPENCER: can someone come up with an argument for why this isn't disgusting?
and should we WANT someone to?
someone needs to sit HRC down and tell her enough is enough, for her own sake
MEGAN: I mean, we're elitist. Our votes don't matter.
Obviously, since we've had 8 years of the Bush Administration.
SPENCER: at what point do New York African-Americans decide they can't support her in 2012?
SPENCER: you can't win a senate election in new york as a democrat without african americans
MEGAN: New Yorkers support plenty of bad politicians, I wouldn't hold your breath on that one.
Besides, there are lots of hard working uneducated white people upstate. I should know.
an enterprising reporter should call charlie rangel and see what he makes of that quote
MEGAN: Charlie will never answer the phone in a million, zillion years.
SPENCER: luckily i spend my days interviewing david petraeus so that ain't gonna be me
MEGAN: Whee, national security stuff!
Also, can you please explain to me what this means? Is A'jad on the outsies?
SPENCER: is it bad form to keep linking to my stuff? probably yeah. so i might as well go all-out-tacky and just quote myself:
a strong prima facie case can be made that Ajmi didn't "return" to the battlefield. The experience of being hooded and goggled and flown half a world away in the belly of a C-130; of being caged under the hot sun in the chain-link-and-wood sarcophagus of Camp X-Ray and then the panopticon of Camp Delta — and I have seen it with my own eyes; of being always at the mercy of the Quick Reaction Force and the Joint Detentions Operations Group and the interrogators; and never having a clear and open and fair path to argue for your freedom for years — that is the sort of thing that makes a man plot revenge. To deny that is to deny human nature.I'm not saying Ajmi was an innocent. I'm not saying Guantanamo gave him a license to murder. And I'm certainly not saying that his victims deserved to die because he spent three years in Guantanamo.
What I'm saying is that a completely forseeable consequence of Guantanamo Bay is the creation of terrorists.
ewwwwwww that was like matching black with navy
MEGAN: Oh, so we're going to talk about you now? Ok.
Well, great argument for never letting them leave Gitmo, which is sort of already the plan.
SPENCER: it's not an argument for not letting them leave GTMO at all!
that's twisted megan
your love of freedom has made you hate freedom
there's this awesome thing called due process
MEGAN: In America? Ha.
SPENCER: i'm waiting to see harold and kumar detonate themselves in mosul
MEGAN: We create them here so we can justify fighting them there?
SPENCER: true fact: guy sitting next to me at DC's best coffee shop mocha hut is reading the USA Today interview with HRC and has his furrowed brow in his hands
(well, hand. That's my commitment to accuracy!)
MEGAN: My brow is furrowed but only because I feel a headache coming on.
SPENCER: i think i'm dehydrated
MEGAN: Dude, I know I'm dehydrated. I've been practicing the great art of drunkorexia again.
SPENCER: is there something else that happened? like how a cyclone killed perhaps 60,000 people in burma?
MEGAN: At least 100,000 will eventually end up being dead, actually, but the junta just let aid workers in if they promise not to fetishize freedom and access to money and food.
SPENCER: josh kurlantzick had a piece in TNR like yesterday that argued there's no way the wake of the disaster could dislodge the SLORC
but i didnt read it
MEGAN: I didn't either, but it sounds about right, but I'm a pessimist.
SPENCER: if there's an example of a natural disaster in an authoritarian country leading to significant political perestroika, i'm drawing a blank
there was that earthquake in iran in like 2003 — couple years later, ahmedinejad was elected
was there something in the caucasus around the time of all those short-lived color-revolutions or am i making that up
MEGAN: The tsunami a couple years ago didn't do anything, either, and after it the democratically elected leader of Thailand, Taksin, was ousted in a coup.
SPENCER: so clearly natural disasters are, pace orwell, objectively pro-fascist
which begs the question of God's political allegiances
MEGAN: There's a God?
Comments
Spencer, I would just like to thank you for finally getting an avatar. You are movin' on up, kid.
Pointing out that Obama has a BIG problem with working-class whites is NOT race-baiting. As isn't the fact that he gets 92% of the black vote. IT's A FACT
I forgot the rule that Black working-class people aren't hard working. Guess I wasn't on the Clinton memo
And Spencer? You are fucking clueless.
@RyanB: That is not what she meant and you fucking know it. The fact that Obama has somehow managed to make the Clintons racist makes me FUCKING SICK.
It seems a little ridiculous to me that no one can make a single comment about how the demographics are breaking down (i.e. a FACT) without an accusation of race baiting.
@RyanB: How do you read her comments & interpret that? Calling one group "hard working" in no way is a slap at another demographic entirely! That's like me saying all Harvard grads smart & the Yale grads complaining that I called them dumb.
@SinisterRouge: Citing your coalition as a "winning base"- especially when you break it down by race - pits groups of democratic voters against each other... as if Obama's key demographics do not make "a winning base" make.
I've never heard him make his case by starting with, "Well I get all the Black voters"
IDENTIFYING DEMOCRAPHICS IS NOT RACIST.
Plus, dudes, what the fuck else do you want? You won't be happy until Hillary is crying in a corner, resigning her Senate seat, publicly humiliated, what? WHAT THE FUCK DOES SHE HAVE TO DO TO SATISFY YOU?!?! SHE HAS ALREADY LOST. Have some fucking dignity in your victory.
@marin79: It's ridiculous. Demographics have determined the outcome in every one of these races. How come we can't talk about how he won NC because 30% of the electorate was black and he got 92% of the votes? Eeek. Yeah that would be unseemly wouldn't it. He's got a white working-class problem. Ignore it all you wish.
@RyanB: BECAUSE NO PRESIDENT HAS EVER BEEN ELECTED WITHOUT THE WHITE WORKING CLASS VOTE
@RyanB: He doesn't have to. He just DOES. Which is FINE. But pointing out that you do NOT win elections ignoring 100 million working-class Whites does NOT make you racist. It is a fucking fact.
@SinisterRouge: so very true.
i'd like to point out that she said that she'd stay in until the primary because there are people behind her that want to see that. i think she needs to see it through if for no other reason than to make it just a leeetle bit easier for the next woman that runs. because if she bowed out now, i think it will be viewed in a very different light than if she waits.
There's a constellation up in here. I just can't think of a clever name for it.
@SinisterRouge: as much as we don't like to admit it, whites are still the majority race in the us. it may not be that way for long, but facts are facts, folks.
Also, HRC not pulling out doesn't mean that her supporters aren't still getting in line behind Obama (as yesterday's rare love fest indicated!) I understand that she's most likely not going to be the nominee, but I don't see what the harm is in finishing up the race. No reason that 45 states should feel empowered that their votes finally matter and then not letting the last 5 weigh in.
@marin79: If Obama's strength among "working, hard-working Americans" is weakening, yet he's gaining support by the day among Blacks, the upper-middle class, the young, then... ?
"What I'm saying is that a completely forseeable consequence of Guantanamo Bay is the creation of terrorists."
What else do you suggest we do with them?
That's really stupid. I hope your "moral outrage" helps you people sleep at night.
P.S. I obviously need a disclaimer here informing everyone that "you people" is not referring to any one racial group.
@SinisterRouge: Who's ignoring them? HRC could never win the election without Obama's base - one that she has pretty much ignored. She didn't even try to gain Black votes in NC
@RyanB: Hard working white Americans. That doesn't mean blacks or upper-class Americans aren't hard-working. Get a grip.
@RyanB: Because it IS weakening. He got 67% of the white vote in VA. He got 30% in NC. It's a problem he's got to deal with . Not saying he can't make it up. But IGNORING it or bleating out RACIST RACIST when it's pointed out is simply ridiculous.
@RyanB: Actually, his campaign has made that argument several times. No one is arguing that the AA vote isn't of huge importance to the Democratic party. I just don't think it's viewed as much as a swing group like the Hispanic or Reagan democrats are. (Although, that's probably debatable in a situation where that group rightly feels like the candidacy was taken away from Obama based on race - even if that's not the truth).
@ Brookidy, put them in Ft. Leavenworth or another such maximum-security facility and apply international-recognized standards of due process and appeal. That would, in turn, also solve the torture problem, since evidence collected through torture is inadmissible in every justice system this side of Hosni Mubarak. Was that so hard?
Ack - well I guess I'm the only one arguing from this angle today on CH... which is fine. No matter what we get into, ladies, you all know I love you
@RyanB: and Obama can NEVER win without Clinton's base. What's your point?
@marin79: dude, i'm readying my yard signs. i'll be all over it. either way.
@TheGuvnah: amen. I would love to hear someone actually answer your questions, though. Obama fans? Answer?
@marin79: Exactly, let her supporters in the last few states make their voices heard. I'm still bitter that Edwards dropped out before Maryland and I didn't get the chance to cast a ballot for him (Ok, I COULD have, as he was still technically on the ballot, but I'm not one for the symbolic vote).
@marin79: I agree. Supposedly everyone's vote is supposed to count.
@RyanB: After IA, it was realized by anyone alive that Obama was a viable black candidate. Awesome. That's great. I assumed from then on he'd get most of the black vote. That does not mean Hillary ignored them. He just GETS the votes. That's all good. Don't be putting on HER that he gets black support.
@SinisterRouge: An strong argument can be made--and I wil--that Democrats have historically not won on the "white working class vote" either way. Bill Clinton didn't have the majority of that demographic to win and neither did Al Gore (to win the popular vote:
From www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/05/clintons-race-baiting-continues.html:
According to CNN's 1996 exit poll, Bill Clinton lost the white vote (Dole 46%, Clinton 43%, Perot 9%). He lost the white male vote by an even larger margin (Dole 49%, Clinton 38%, Perot 11%). And he lost gun owners badly (Dole 51%, Clinton 38%, Perot 10%). However, Clinton won the popular vote overall
In 2000 -- when Al Gore won the popular vote by half a million votes -- he lost white males to Bush by a whopping 60%-36%, according to CNN's exit poll. He lost men overall 53%-42%. He lost whites overall 54%-42%. He lost gun owners 61%-36%. He lost small-town voters 59%-38% and rural voters 59%-37%. He lost the Midwest overall 49%-48%.
@brookidy: Tryi them in a court of law. Treat with dignity and respect. Show them that we are not in fact declaring war on Islam, only on extremism.
@SinisterRouge: Tell me, by actively campaigning in white, working-class neighborhoods, by drinking crappy beer and bowling (terribly), how is he ignoring the problem?
@BadenBaden: Me too. Hating Hillary is like having an iPhone these days.
God, you guys are SO COOL!
@RyanB: Actually, he's always had the youth, African Americans & educated upper middle class votes - which is why the Mondale situation is always bantered about - Mondale got crushed with the same backing. Clinton was most certainly referring to the working class vote since that's something she's constantly citing as why she should be considered as a viable candidate. I just refuse to believe that was a swipe against another group. All I see that comment as was blantant pandering, not an attack on other voters.
@BadenBaden: You know I am all ready to vote for him. But the chances dwindle ever more when people like spencer and Megan keep calling it race-baiting. It's DEMOGRAPHICS. And they have determined every race thus far. To ignore it is beyond STUPID.
@ My Friend SinRoo, Who I Never Called "Clueless", I would respectfully submit that at least one reason Obama's numbers with the white working class have declined is because of the Clinton campaign's endless post-January insistence that he can't win white people, amplified ad nauseum in the media. Any reporter who sits on those Geoff Garin/Howard Wolfson conference calls will tell you that they sound this dog-whistle endlessly. It's a deliberate strategy, and it's beneath the dignity of a woman who has contributed a great deal to progressive politics.
@RyanB: Did you see Brazile on CNN? She said we don't need working-class whites or Latinos to win. Good for you Brazile. Good luck with that.
And he's NOT actively courting them. He has NOT made any kind of effort to get their vote. And saying he'll just "get" Clinton supporters is IGNORING the problem. Assuming you can win with higher-income whites, liberals and blacks is just foolish.
@Too Hot For TNR: wait, so voters hear from the media that obama can't win white voters so then they don't vote for him?
no snark, I'm seriously just trying to interpret what you are saying.
@RyanB: I just had an image of HRC trying to win the black votes by visiting black neighborhoods, wearing FUBU and trying to rap on the streets.. wait, is that racist?
@SinisterRouge: well you're one step ahead of me. I am SO NOT READY to vote for him. This is one white vote he's gonna have to EARN.
@Sophie: That is a breakdown of the entire popular vote, no? I think that the white working-class vote matters more in terms of electoral votes in swing states populated largely by working-class white voters (PA, OH, etc).
Counting the entirety of the popular vote, instead of examining the counts within states that went democratic (i.e. not the south), would probably paint a different picture. Those states are the ones we risk losing. We won't get the hardcore red states no matter who is the dem candidate.
@RyanB: Never fun to be the only supporter out - I was one of the only HRC people here on Tuesday night & my head was spinning from trying to reply to 20 responses at once!
@SinisterRouge: Many Black people (not ALL, but many) believe that HRC and her campaign has race-baited and marginalized Black voters, thus pushing them away. Just read the Jack and Jill Politics article that CH links to up top. You may disagree, but that's how many Black people feel.
Another great article on the subject, by Andrew Sullivan:
[andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com]
@Too Hot For TNR: They NEVER amplified that. The MEDIA did. The MEDIA said it was so. His white working-class -problem was not anything Hillary or even Bill did. It started AFTER VA. It started in March. It started after WRIGHT.
@ferociacoutura: No associating Hillary hate with my beloved Mac products!!!
@gold_gato: No, it's funny :)
@RyanB: I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree that blacks feel like the Clintons are racist now. I put it at the feet of Obama and his supporters. I really REALLY do. It's not true. It makes me fucking ILL that his campaign did that. And it's probably why I WON'T vote for him