Jezebel
Hey guys, guess what we're going to talk about again? Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, race and gender! Today, the issue is brought to us by Ms. co-founder Letty Cottin Pogrebin and her daughter Abigail (pictured), who duke it out over on PBS because Letty can't understand why her daughter is for Obama. To Letty, "the pinnacle defines the possibility," and until a woman is president, young girls will not be able to live without a glass ceiling. She is "hurt" that Abigail won't vote for Hillary, "Because it's kinda like, as a woman, when a woman finally deserves to be where she is, somebody comes in and undercuts her. And it's just like a feeling we've all known, we've all known where you've worked hard at your job, he comes in, young whippersnapper, and you know, he can play golf with everybody and he can kind of charm, and he takes precedence."
Pogrebin articulates what a lot of old-tyme feminists seem to be feeling, but the most interesting thing about the PBS clip is how all mothers are annoying in the exact same way. Abigail, who somewhat absurdly claims that she has never ever experienced sexism, is very staunchly for Obama despite her mother's protestations. After her mom says she's "hurt" by the fact that Abgail won't, "when push comes to shove...vote for a woman!" Abigail whines back, "I'm not changing my mind, mom. MOMMY!"
Mommy indeed! Gloria Steinem, another co-founder of Ms., was also on the public airwaves, but with NPR. She basically rehashed her now-infamous New York Times op-ed "Women Are Never Front-Runners," but adds that she thinks racism and sexism are deeply intertwined, and that "they can only be uprooted together." She says that "much of the media is ranking [racism and sexism] rather than linking them," but Steinem can't help herself. She then mentions that African-American presidential candidate Shirley Chisholm "thought it was more difficult being a woman in her political life than being an African American, but that can only be judged by the individual."
I know we've talked a lot about how older women are voting for Hillary on this site because of the good fight they waged against sexism in the 60s and 70s. I don't think that the former indignities they suffered are a valid reason to vote for any candidate, but hearing Abigail Pogrebin say that she has never encountered sexism makes me wonder if we do take the women's rights movement of the 60s and 70s for granted. Letty Pogrebin said on PBS, "Racism is mutable, it can change with class. If you look at Barack Obama or Colin Powell...color drains when class rises. Sexism is immutable. If a man has a sense of what women should be doing, it's really hard to break that up. Even if he has a very accomplished daughter." It's not even a question about what's worse, racism or sexism. It's about acknowledging that sexism still exists. Have we stopped fighting a battle we didn't win?
One Family's Split Decision [PBS, via Feministing]
Gloria Steinem On Gender, Race In Election 2008 [NPR]
Comments
It's so cute how idealistic women are in their 20's. Wait til you hit your 40's and 50's and see if you don't experience sexism and ageism.
Unfortunately, leave it to Letty to raise an independent thinking woman! Love her, btw.
My old-people parents (dad 63, mom 65) are Probama, whereas I lean Hillary.
Just sayin'. All this generalization is starting to stress me out.
@special_boots: ooh, Probama. New fave!
This is the kind of thing that's been keeping me awake at night these days.
Issues, people, frigging ISSUES. Is. Why. You. Vote. For. Someone.
Why can't she respect her daughter's right to make up her own damn mind?
And there is an -ism that is not talked about enough in this race, and that is ageism. And it is impacting all three candidates, and it shows in comments like, "young whippersnapper."
@Sabrina Duncan Kicks Ass: Agreed. I am in my 20's and everyone my age seems so different.
Older feminists are NOT doing themselves, or the cause, any favors by telling people to vote for Clinton because she's a woman.
God, I wish they would stop that.
Yes, but what about those of us that question whether Hillary "deserves" to be where she is now? She's obviously brilliant and well-educated, but I don't buy the argument that she has so much more meaningful policy experience than Obama.
@special_boots: Yeah, my boyfriend's parents also voted for Obama. But they don't get in anyone's face about it, like all of the young and passionate Obama supporters I know.
@kentuckienne: I gotta say, Obama's lack of experience keeps me up at night. Til at least 3 a.m. ;P
Yup. I'm 45, and I voted for Hillary. I'm not too young not to remember when the default pronoun--without question, comment or choice--was "he." I'm not supporting Hillary solely because she's a woman, but I can't say that a visceral "go, girl!" reaction isn't a part of it.
teh father is pro barry and my mom is undecided and i'm pro Hilaria cause of political party girl :)
Part of the oppression women have suffered in the history of this nation is the absence of choice in political contests. It's a double-edged sword to advocate voting for a woman on the sole basis that she is a woman thus theoretically it is a positive move for the entire gender, while simultaneously sending the message that women are competent, productive, intelligent members of society and should have just have much right to vote for the candidates that will represent them as anyone else. Which is it, women's movement? Do you want us to choose our own candidate? Or do you want to choose for us? Can't have it both ways, I'm afraid.
Since we still have autonomous women who claim they are "not feminists", yes, we have taken strides of the older feminists for granted.
As for those older feminists who so often take the "white" for granted when talking about "women", and cannot accept that some of their daughters and younger sisters have learned that they are entitled to look at the whole of a person not just gender (isn't that what we've fought so hard for?), they need to reevaluate the rigidity of their stance a bit.
in this day and age, the fact that a young woman says she has never encountered sexism speaks to her obviously limited experiences.
it makes me wonder if she really knows what sexism is.
@special_boots: but it's not just generalizations, polls and voting patterns are clearly showing younger people skewing Probama (love, btw).
Jeez. I read some article in Newsweek or somewhere-wait, Rolling Stone-theorizing that women are upset with Obama because he represents every guy who's beat them out for a job when the women are more qualified, or every guy who has somehow gotten ahead of them not on merit, but gender. I thought the theory was a little dubious, but this woman is making me have doubts.
Yes, sexism is still a problem. So is projecting your own issues onto political candidates. This seems almost like saying if a man beats Hillary, it can't be because voters thought he was a better candidate. It had to be because of sexism.
I don't have a problem with people who oppose Obama, but I don't think this is the best reason to.
@Hamsterpants: I feel your frustration. Problem is, sexism and racism play into voters' thinking on how people would handle said issues, and it drives all the rhetoric, leading to the creation of stupid red telephone commercials to prove a woman has the balls to drop bombs. And far-right mumblings about how a man named Obama would somehow favor Muslims with his foreign policy.
And to add, racism and sexism are both alive and well, and they both suck.
@special_boots: Amen
@Sabrina Duncan Kicks Ass: She probably has experienced sexism, but just didn't classify it as that. While it is great not to dwell on it, don't be so naive that you can't see it when it is there.
@Hamsterpants: Not these days. The candidates' policies are a like, so their personal lives and spouse's fashion sense make news.
@hortense: She can't respect her daughter's opinion because while she wanted to raise an independent and intelligent daughter, she also wanted that daughter to think and act exactly like her. Unfortunately, children are not robots -- they can't really be programmed to think the same way as their parents, unless there is complete immersion and indoctrination.
Where does Princess Abigail live that she's never experienced sexism? I experience it from men and women, usually a couple of times a week. Then again, I work at a male dominated video game company, so I might not be the norm.
I can't wait until the nomination is in, that's all I can say. Never thought I'd tire of a political race.
i'm 20 and voting for hillary. i think i may be the only one of my friends who is not rabidly pro-obama. i can't help feeling some of the same disappointment as the older woman in this article feels toward her daughter's generation. i don't understand why so many girls my age are eager to state that they are "NOT feminists" - what a ridiculous statement for ANY woman to make.
Can't watch at work. Is this girl out of college yet? Does she recognize how her mother's success has smoothed her own path? To me, racism v. sexism is not the most compelling reason to cast a vote, but to say that you've NEVER experienced gender bias is kind of mind-blowing from the daughter of a Ms. founder.
Does she not get that Obama represents a lot of the same things for black people? And that most of us don't give a shit about either, we're voting on the damn issues?
Can identity politics be over soon?
@Sabrina Duncan Kicks Ass: (Bowling... is that you?)
You know, Obama's been serving in g'vt since 1996, and HRC since 2000, right?
Has never experienced sexism? Where does she live?
@Leiakat: I'm not sure I grasp the meaning of your comment. Clarify?
I would be more than happy to vote for a woman. But I will not vote for THAT woman.
@scrumtrulescent: No one's trying to force you to vote one way or another, silly. It's called persuasion, no coercion.
@Pterodactyl: She is 28!
@Pterodactyl: Thinking about it, this is probably normal post-adolescent rejection of parental attitudes and values. Perhaps part of the "boomer backlash" Moe was on about.
@Archetype: I feel you! I think Obama's pretty great, but my Obamaniac friends are driving me up the waaaaall. I think he's smart and progressive and a good candidate, but they think he's Jesus returned and I don't get it.
"Color drains when class rises..."
This is a cute statement, but it ignores the role that race plays in class mobility. Especially when you single out men who are still "firsts".
These two candidates had me so very torn for a long time. It helped me a bit when I thought that seeing either one in the Presidency would help the cause of women, as ANY non old-white-man will change the collective face of the political possibilities, literally. Does the very thought of a woman being President make me tear up with pride and joy and hope, though? Yes. Yes yes yes.
@TheGuvnah: Oh, I know. You're absolutely right. It's just that sometimes I feel like the media says ALL OLD PEOPLE LOVE HILLARY, ALL YOUNG PEOPLE HATE HER and I'm like... wait!
@ceejeemcbeegee (1996 came before 2000): Yeah it's me. Just in a different outfit. ;)
Yes, I do know that he's been serving since 96. But I do think Hillary has some residual experience just by virtue of living in the White House for 8 years and being married to the President. Coupled wth the fact that she's also served as a senator.
I'm Obvs pro HRC, but if it's Obama vs. McCain, I'll be voting Obama foreals.
@Pterodactyl: Also, I was not exclaiming at you, I am just shocked that she is 28 and claims to have never experienced sexism!
We've already settled this one in my house: my boys voted HRC in Junior Achievement this week. My work is done.
It really bothers me that some people do not look at Clinton's time as First Lady (White House & Arkansas) as experience.
Because it's kinda like, as a woman, when a woman finally deserves to be where she is, somebody comes in and undercuts her. And it's just like a feeling we've all known, we've all known where you've worked hard at your job, he comes in, young whippersnapper, and you know, he can play golf with everybody and he can kind of charm, and he takes precedence."
Now lets rephrase this:
Because it's kinda like, as a African American, when an African American finally deserves to be where he is, somebody comes in and undercuts him. And it's just like a feeling we've all known, we've all known where you've worked hard at your job, [a White woman] comes in, young whippersnapper, and you know, she can play golf with everybody and she can kind of charm, and she takes precedence."
Now you know how African Americans feel.
@special_boots: oy yes i supported obama before feb but i was never a fuckin' fanatic, a lot of my friends are exactly like that!
@lalaland13:
I think because of the historic nature of the race, some projection is inevitable. In fact, there have been numerous articles about how Obama is a "blank slate" (not my words) upon whom supporters can project what they want. So.... (bear with me here)-
"Yes, sexism is still a problem. So is projecting your own issues onto political candidates. This seems almost like saying if a man beats Hillary, it can't be because voters thought he was a better candidate. It had to be because of sexism."
I'm going to rephrase-
"Yes, racism is still a problem. So is project